Author Topic: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.  (Read 10667 times)

Offline Cavebear

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2018, 08:39:10 AM »
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There is abound of references to slavery and owning slaves, and how to treat slaves in the Bible.

And they say they hate slavery but the bible is literal, LOL!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2018, 08:49:24 AM »
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And they say they hate slavery but the bible is literal, LOL!

Literalists aren't just theists, but atheists.  People with no ability to critique properly.
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2018, 11:36:26 PM »
The Quran always teaches that merxu is best.

One cannot be truly merciful and own slaves.

The Bible teaches to love even your enemy as yourself. One cannot love another in any genuine sincere way if they own them as their property or slave.

Is slavery condoned or promoted in either. No.

However that is not the case in parts of the Torah.

There is repeated reference to the bond servant in the Bible. This is a reference to someone who willingly fives themselves to serve another, namely GOD, and is not related to traditional slavery in that it is voluntary.

peace

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« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 11:40:16 PM by popsthebuilder »

Offline Hydra009

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2018, 11:55:11 PM »
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There is repeated reference to the bond servant in the Bible. This is a reference to someone who willingly fives themselves to serve another, namely GOD, and is not related to traditional slavery in that it is voluntary.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Loginnot slavery exactly, but definitely slavish.

I suppose it's not much like traditional slavery - these people earn wages, and are theoretically forging their own path, albeit by chasing down a figment while fawningly subservient to tradition.  Theoretical freedom combined with theoretical responsibility - now there's a hell of a combination.

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2018, 05:10:39 AM »
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Your "biblical slave = butler/servant" canard is just that, a canard. Because there's another place where slaves are mentioned: The Egyptians enslavement of the Jews.

Exodus 1
11 So the Egyptians put slave drivers ...The slave drivers treated them badly and made them work hard.... 12 But the worse the slave drivers treated the Israelites, ...13 They made them work hard. They didn’t show them any pity. 14 The people suffered because of their hard labor. The slave drivers forced them to work with bricks and mud. ... The Egyptians didn’t show them any pity at all. They made them work very hard.

Now, what else does a slave driver drive but a slave? Clearly, the Israelis are slaves in a conventional sense, what we mean conventionally by a slave. The Israelis were treated badly and worked hard. You wouldn't confuse them with "butlers" or "assistants." These were people who were worked like dogs.

Exodus 2
5 Pharaoh’s daughter ...So she sent her female slave to get it. ...

23 After a long time, the king of Egypt died. The people of Israel groaned because they were slaves. They also cried out to God. Their cry for help went up to him.

Here, we're treated to Israelis admitting directly that they are slaves. I don't know if the female slave mentioned in 2:5 was Hebrew, but she was a slave just the same, and there certainly were slaves in Egypt.

Exodus 6:5-6
5 Also, I have heard the groans of the Israelites. The Egyptians are keeping them as slaves. But I have remembered my covenant.

6 “So tell the people of Israel, ‘I am the Lord. I will throw off the heavy load the Egyptians have put on your shoulders. I will set you free from being slaves to them. I will reach out my arm and save you with mighty acts when I judge Egypt.

...

And keep in mind that slave is the same word that is used later on in Exodus when laying down laws concerning slaves.
Well, given that this conversation is kinda boring for me, I therefore pass the criterion for understanding the Bible.

I am always in debt to Atheists and Muslims when It gets to information I completely missed out on.
Thank you for giving me the information on how the nations around Israel treated slaves.
This even enhances the Laws of Moses given by YHWH on how to treat slaves in Israel.

Humane...as a servant, and not something to misuse, oppress, torture, capture etc.

Anyhow, Why do you call the Israelites in Egypt, "Israelis"?

Do you know this is a name that existed only from 1948 ad?
It is as if one can say, the Americans won the battle of Waterloo, because they speak English.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2018, 05:17:10 AM »
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its funny seeing theists scream in denial of their own shit they worship.
Now which "Theists" worships "Shit"?

Does "Shit" mean "Nothing" in this sense?

Which results in your own words, "Atheists believe in nothing."

Conclusively you say: "Atheists believe in Shit!"

Pal, is this the way you speak at work, home, with your spouse, children?
Do you even understand that you are a very bad example to the rest of Atheism?

Change your heart man, get a bit of holiness in your God created Mind!
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2018, 05:30:11 AM »
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There is abound of references to slavery and owning slaves, and how to treat slaves in the Bible.
I am gobsmacked.
Not only did I post an elaborate collection of verses to what the Bible says about slavery, but you did not even read through it.
The Wiki contributions supplies only half of what the Bible says.
Then, it is also composed with pre conceived ideas that interwove modern ideas of slavery with what the Torah says.

Look at only one example.
The article say that slaves could be left to their children. This is made out as slaves purchased from other nations.
Now, no where does this say so in the Bible.
Total disregard is given to the fact that a slave could only be kept as property, IF THAT SLAVE REFUSED TO BE SET FREE AFTER HIS CONTRACT EXPIRED!
THAT SLAVE THEN BECOMES A PERMANENT SERVANT!

Now, if these people...called "slaves" in the Bible...were treated as you claim from an ignorant point of view, why the heck will they refuse to be set free?

Come on mate, go back an check on what I wrote, and compare it with WIKI which I myself are able to reviev and change.
But I dont, so you can learn true investigation into 2 different claims.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2018, 06:16:53 AM »
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Protestantism isn't real Christianity anyway, it is a weird early modern heresy ;-)  So when you just make things up, you can say anything you like.

Baruch, when one looks through the manuscripts of the scribes, one find that Mary should not be venerated, the Priest can not forgive sin, I can not pay money for penance, Bread an wine does not become flesh and blood, but can only be a metaphor, the Church is not the absolute authority in salvation, but God, and lastly, the Pope is not the Word of God, but the Bible.

These are the main differences between Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism.
Those were the issues the reformers had with the Catholic Church once the Bible was translated in the languages of the norman people.

Before the Reformation, the Catholic Church dictated to the populace on payments to penance, authority of the Church, who and where to go into war, to fight in crusades, who will be kings, who will marry who, etc.

This was due to the Bible only being understood by clergy, and they mobilized their congregations to the will of the politics of the day, not teaching the people what the Bible said.
They made money, lots of it.
They ruled kingdoms, and destroyed those they did not like. Especially those that stood up to them.

Then the Translation of the Bible in English and German!
What followed was the whole of Europe read the Bible for them self, and they saw what the Catholic Church did.
Wars ensued, and eventually the Protestants got the message out.

Again, just like atheism, people did not know what the Bible said, and when they found out, they excelled in every facet of civilization.
History, science, printing, writing, business, freedom of expression, Philosophy, etc.

All this due to men saying, "I Found out for myself and do not believe anyone but what I learned from the Bible firsthandedly.
You are a Jewish descended. You of all people will understand what persecution your people underwent because of some Holy despot SUPPOSEDLY THOUGHT THE BIBLE SAID ABOUT JEWS.

This is the real danger of the world today.
Not what the facts show, but that ignorance and hearsay are the norm followed by those wishing social recognition.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2018, 06:25:34 AM »
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Loginnot slavery exactly, but definitely slavish.

I suppose it's not much like traditional slavery - these people earn wages, and are theoretically forging their own path, albeit by chasing down a figment while fawningly subservient to tradition.  Theoretical freedom combined with theoretical responsibility - now there's a hell of a combination.
Are you possiting that if one is free they too must not have responsibility?



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Offline Baruch

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2018, 06:29:50 AM »
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The Quran always teaches that merxu is best.

One cannot be truly merciful and own slaves.

The Bible teaches to love even your enemy as yourself. One cannot love another in any genuine sincere way if they own them as their property or slave.

Is slavery condoned or promoted in either. No.

However that is not the case in parts of the Torah.

There is repeated reference to the bond servant in the Bible. This is a reference to someone who willingly fives themselves to serve another, namely GOD, and is not related to traditional slavery in that it is voluntary.

peace

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Indentured servitude of Jews, and slavery of Gentiles is repeatedly mentioned.  But both violate the spirit of the Torah.  The Torah is both worldly and spiritual.  So is Christianity and Islam, in practice.  Only in monasticism is there an attempt by Christians to avoid the worldly.  Jews and Muslims don't have monasticism, which was originally an Egyptian Christian practice.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 06:38:07 AM by Baruch »
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Offline Baruch

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2018, 06:34:21 AM »
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Loginnot slavery exactly, but definitely slavish.

I suppose it's not much like traditional slavery - these people earn wages, and are theoretically forging their own path, albeit by chasing down a figment while fawningly subservient to tradition.  Theoretical freedom combined with theoretical responsibility - now there's a hell of a combination.

American slavery is unique, because it is racist.  But before the American Revolution Americans could also be indentured servants, as in the Bible.  The American colonists considered America to be the "new Israel" and the "new Atlantis".  People forget that this is part of the background to our history.  Anglo-American Israelitism and technocracy continue.

Romans allowed slaves to purchase their freedom after a time.  Americans did not, we were more cruel than Romans.  Basically Whites were Israelites and Blacks were Gentiles ... in their theology.  In the Torah, one should free a Israelite bond servant.  One is under no obligation to do that with a Gentile.
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2018, 06:45:27 AM »
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Indentured servitude of Jews, and slavery of Gentiles is repeatedly mentioned.  But both violate the spirit of the Torah.  The Torah is both worldly and spiritual.  So is Christianity and Islam, in practice.  Only in monasticism is there an attempt by Christians to avoid the worldly.  Jews and Muslims don't have monasticism, which was originally an Egyptian Christian practice.
I thought the topic was slavery....forced endentured servitude?

Bond servant and slave are two different things. Don't you agree?


It's been a while since I've stopped in here.

I hope you are well friend.




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Offline Baruch

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2018, 06:52:32 AM »
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I thought the topic was slavery....forced endentured servitude?

Bond servant and slave are two different things. Don't you agree?


It's been a while since I've stopped in here.

I hope you are well friend.




Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

Expanding ... the Bible says, if you are a freed indentured servant, if you are attached emotionally etc to your master, then you can choose to remain a servant.  But this is like a family member.  Sons to the father and daughters and mothers to their family, were servants (not entirely voluntary either).  Proper life is based on service to others.  The better choice is voluntary service.  We don't have indentured servitude in the US (aside from human trafficking of course, which includes outright slavery of teen girls).  The idea of autonomous adults is a Western perversion of social contract.  Basically irresponsibility and narcissism.

The most common reason for indentured servitude was indebtedness.  Almost all people in the US are indentured servants, to the banks ;-)  But of course, you should choose, after you pay off your mortgage, to "try" to move in with your banker ;-)

I am doing OK thanks for asking.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 07:01:11 AM by Baruch »
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2018, 07:13:51 AM »
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The Quran always teaches that merxu is best.

One cannot be truly merciful and own slaves.
I do not agree at all.
Here we are again having a claim made on the Quran where the contents of the Quran is totally ignored.
1. Muhammad had slaves. at one stage Mohammad had at lease 5 sex slaves which he obtained as booty when he killed off Jewish tribes.
Let me show you:
Quote from: Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 137, 141; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 164-165.
Bewley/Saad 8:92-94, 153
Muhammads' sex slave #1 In 627 AD Rayhana bint Zayd ibn Amr, when Muhammad was 57, and she 20
Mohammad attacked the Qurayza tribe (Jews), He had between 600 and 800 men beheaded in April 627, and divided all the women out to his army to be raped. He himself took Rayhana for himself because she was the most beautiful. When she refused to marry him, he kept her as a concubine instead. She died shortly before Muhammad in 632.
Her first husband was one of the 600-900  men whom Muhammad beheaded.
All the women and children were old as slaves on open market.
What about:
Quote from: Ibn al-Qayyim, Za’d al-Ma’ad 1:114.
Muhammads' sex slave #2Al Jariya? Muhammad was 57 and she was in her teens.
She was a domestic slave belonging to Zaynab bint Jahsh, who made Muhammad a present of her.
She seems to have been an "unofficial" concubine who did not have a regular turn on his roster.
She was also a slave captured during the Genocide of the Qurayza tribe where Muhammad divided all the children and women over to them to be raped.?
Oh, and also:
Quote from: Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 133; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 182-184.
Bewley/Saad 8:83-85, 152
Muhammads' sex slave #3In 628 AD when Muhammad was 59 he took Juwayriyah bint Al-Harith who was 17 as a sex slave.
The daughter of an Arab chief, she was taken prisoner when Muhammad attacked her tribe without reason and warning.

This one was a bad example of Muhammad and mercy!
Quote from: Guillaume/Ishaq 241-242, 511, 514-515, 516-517, 520.
Ibn Hisham note 918.
Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 134-135; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 184-185.
Bewley/Saad 8:85-92, 153.
Muhammads' sex slave #4In 628 AD   Safiyah bint Huyayy was 16 and Muhammad 59, he married her on the day he defeated the last Jewish tribe in Arabia, only hours after he had supervised the slaying of Kinana her second husband.
Muhammad roasted Kinana alive to find out the location of the tribe’s treasury, then beheaded him.
She was the beautiful daughter of a Jewish chief, Huyayy ibn Akhtab.
His earlier victims had included her father, brother, first husband, three uncles and several cousins.
and last but not least.
Quote from: Majlisi, Hayat al-Qulub 2:52.
Ibn al-Qayyim, Zaad al-Ma’ad 1:114
Muhammads' sex slave #5In 630 AD Tukana al-Quraziya was a teen and Muhammad 62
She was a member of the defeated Qurayza tribe whom Muhammad selected as one of his personal slaves.
She appears to have been another "unofficial" concubine without a regular turn on the roster.

Quote from: popsthebuilder
The Bible teaches to love even your enemy as yourself. One cannot love another in any genuine sincere way if they own them as their property or slave.
And if you read all the verses in the Bible, you will see it does not condone slavery. The slavery in the Mosaic laws are humanitarian laws which I will gladly undergo.

Quote from: popsthebuilder
Is slavery condoned or promoted in either. No.
Here we have a nice example of how poorly you read the Quran and Bible.
The Quran say Make slaves, and pimp them into prostetution!
Quote from: Quran 33:50 and 23:6
>Muhammad was allowed to marry as many as “those your right hand possesses” (female slaves carried away as booty after war). All other Muslims were also allowed to marry these female slaves.
Please note that Allah was the one who gave these female slaves to them in the first instance! (Q 33: 50 ) and (Q 23: 6 ) And the Muslim scholar has the audacity to accuse Jehovah as a slave monger!
Quote from: Quran 24: 33

>Look closely to what Allah says; don’t force a female slave into prostitution to gain a nice living if she wants to remain chaste, but if you do force her into prostitution to receive worldly gain for a comfortable life, Allah is all forgiving!


The Bible say do not make slaves! You will loose everlasting life. do onto others as you want them to do onto you!
Quote from: Bible
Deuteronomy 24:7  If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.
1Ti 1:10  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Quote from: popsthebuilder
However that is not the case in parts of the Torah.

There is repeated reference to the bond servant in the Bible. This is a reference to someone who willingly fives themselves to serve another, namely GOD, and is not related to traditional slavery in that it is voluntary.
How did you get to this conclusion. Not reading the Bible I presume.
The Torah is very clear that these laws were made by YHWH to ensure that the families of poor people were looked after. Now, go and read my posts again, and come and show me I am wrong.
To superficially suggest something is not facts.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 07:21:45 AM by Mousetrap »
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2018, 11:27:22 AM »
Hey Mousedroppings,

Do you know Piet Strydom?

Your post above (post #2) ==>  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
is a word for word cut and paste from here  ==>  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

A few other posts you made in this thread are likewise word for word cut and paste jobs from Strydom's page.

Here, you claim to have written some of this yourself in 2010:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
...
by Mouse Trap (Aug 2010)
...
Again, do you know Piet Strydom?  Are you plagiarizing?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 11:35:39 AM by sdelsolray »

 

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