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Slavery. The Bible and Quran.

Started by Mousetrap, August 03, 2018, 07:13:29 AM

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Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: Mousetrap on August 07, 2018, 08:07:03 AM
1. If you "steal" a person, human trafficking, you should get the death penalty.
There are exceptions to every rule. It also contradicts the direction for Israel to get its slaves from its neighbors.

Prisoners captured in war are not "stolen." They're war booty.

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2. You can buy slaves, but for a period not longer than 7 years, then the slave must be set free, with a severance package.
3. You must pay for this slave in advance to save his / her family from starvation and poverty.
4. You must pay the slave before the sun sets.
5. You can not hurt a slave, for as little as a tooth, you must set him free.
Only for Hebrew slaves. And all of them contradicts 1.

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6. If you murder a slave, you will receive the death penalty.
Only if he dies within the day.

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7. If a slave escapes and knocks on your door, you are not allowed to send him back to his owner, but you must protect the slave.
Are they slaves of foreign nations? Then keeping the slave is just power politics; keeping the slaves diminishes the wealth of the foreign power.

Are the slaves Hebrew? Then there might be a legitimate reason for them to run, in which case that is a matter to be decided by the ruler, and not the person the slave has run to or the slave's owner. In which case the slave may yet be returned to his/her original owner.

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8. a slave isnot allowed to work on the sabbath day.
No work is allowed to be performed on the sabbath day at all. So the slaves have to be beholden to the same rule as everyone else. Why does this dismiss the other rules they're beholden to?

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9. If a slave's period of employment expires, and he does not want to go free, he can remain with his owner.
He becomes a true slave, enslaved in perpetuity, whence he can be passed on as property to his children. Again, this is only for Hebrew slaves. Foreign slaves are enslaved in perpetuity from the start.

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10. If a female slave was bought with the intend to marry her master, or his son, and she is treated with deceit, she have the right to leave, without compensation to the owner who paid 7 years' worth of wages to her family.
All this means is that you can't use slavery as a sneaky means of marriage. And again, this is only open to Hebrew slaves.

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11. If a female slave marries her owner, she is co owner of his estate.
So you can marry out of slavery. Doesn't mean that there's no such thing as slaves.

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12. No slave is allowed to be sold to other nations except to the tribes of Israel.
Which is human trafficking, and against #1.

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13. All slaves enjoy the normal legal status as any other person in Israel.
Only if they're Hebrew, and only if they haven't given up their freedom forever.

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Come on!!!
I challenge any atheist to prove to me that I lied about the above claims I made.


If slavery wasn't allowed by the Bible, how come all the rules for treatment of slaves that don't consist of the blanket edict "DON'T OWN SLAVES" and "FREE ALL SLAVES IMMEDIATELY"?


It's really that simple.
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Mousetrap

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on August 08, 2018, 09:20:52 AM
There are exceptions to every rule. It also contradicts the direction for Israel to get its slaves from its neighbors.
And they will then have all the rights as I showed you.
Quote from: Hakurei ReimuPrisoners captured in war are not "stolen." They're war booty.
And there is no case of war booty set out in the Bible.
If you want to refer to the Amalekite and Canaanite extermination, this was when God Himself were present in the camp of Israel, and there werereasons for why they were destroyed. There was no allowance to Israel to capture people to make them slaves.
Quote from: Hakurei ReimuOnly for Hebrew slaves. And all of them contradicts 1.
Only if he dies within the day.
This was if a man hit a slave, and the slave dies on the day of assault, will the owner be executed.
If he dies later than that, it was not because of the assault, but because of other circumstances.
There is no mention of anyone who was executed because of this law, therefore the law worked.
But look how conveniently you dont want to mention that if a slave looses an eye, or a tooth, he is free.

Quote from: Hakurei ReimuAre they slaves of foreign nations? Then keeping the slave is just power politics; keeping the slaves diminishes the wealth of the foreign power.

Quote from: Hakurei ReimuAre the slaves Hebrew? Then there might be a legitimate reason for them to run, in which case that is a matter to be decided by the ruler, and not the person the slave has run to or the slave's owner. In which case the slave may yet be returned to his/her original owner.
No work is allowed to be performed on the sabbath day at all. So the slaves have to be beholden to the same rule as everyone else. Why does this dismiss the other rules they're beholden to?
Straw man, it does not differentiate.
If the Bible say you can buy slaves from other nations, and you must treat them well, according to the Mosaic laws, why do you want to imply that there are a difference, when there is no such evidence?
Quote from: Hakurei ReimuHe becomes a true slave, enslaved in perpetuity, whence he can be passed on as property to his children. Again, this is only for Hebrew slaves. Foreign slaves are enslaved in perpetuity from the start.
You can sell your slaves or pass them down to hour children in your estate, but the law is clear, ON THE SABBATICAL YEAR, YOU WILL SET THE SLAVES FREE!!! Please supply me with the verses where there is reference to the foreign slave.

Quote from: Hakurei ReimuAll this means is that you can't use slavery as a sneaky means of marriage. And again, this is only open to Hebrew slaves.
So you can marry out of slavery. Doesn't mean that there's no such thing as slaves.
Says who?
Quote from: Hakurei ReimuWhich is human trafficking, and against #1.
Only if they're Hebrew, and only if they haven't given up their freedom forever.
If you perceive slavery from the Bible the same as what you perceive slavery in, say, 200 years ago, you will make such a mistake.
Quote from: Hakurei ReimuIf slavery wasn't allowed by the Bible, how come all the rules for treatment of slaves that don't consist of the blanket edict "DON'T OWN SLAVES" and "FREE ALL SLAVES IMMEDIATELY"?

Because they were not slaves as you understand Slavery to be!!!
You confuse Biblical 'slavery' with your understanding to what you think it is.
You skip out on the reason for "Slavery" in Israel!
Deut 15:11-12
The intend of the "Bible slave" equals what we called 50 years ago a "Butler" and today call "Assistant..."
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Hydra009

Quote from: Mousetrap on August 07, 2018, 07:51:09 AM
People used the Bible to justify Slavery.
And as I proved to you, they did have a clue to what the Bible said about slavery.
If I use the Bible to judge the slavers of 300 years ago, they will be executed!
If you tried to argue that in their time and place (and not the much more humanistic world of today), you would likely get trounced in any debate, same as you do here.

Hydra009

Quote from: Mousetrap on August 07, 2018, 08:07:03 AM13. All slaves enjoy the normal legal status as any other person in Israel.
So they could work whenever they wanted?  Or demand wages?

Slaves, by definition, do not enjoy the same legal status as everyone else.

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: Mousetrap on August 08, 2018, 10:34:51 AM
And they will then have all the rights as I showed you.
You haven't shown me any "rights."

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And there is no case of war booty set out in the Bible.
So? War booty is a time honored tradition that all nations of the middle east engaged in. Your bible doesn't contain everything the Hebrews did or were allowed to do.

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If you want to refer to the Amalekite and Canaanite extermination, this was when God Himself were present in the camp of Israel, and there werereasons for why they were destroyed.
No, this is not only towards Amalekite and Canaanite "exterminations," it's toward any other war that the Hebrews fought.

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This was if a man hit a slave, and the slave dies on the day of assault, will the owner be executed.
If he dies later than that, it was not because of the assault, but because of other circumstances.
Nonsense. You can fester for a while, even days, before dying from an assault.

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There is no mention of anyone who was executed because of this law, therefore the law worked.
No, the fact that they had to make the law in the first place is indication that it was happening. And no, just because they don't mention transgressions doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

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But look how conveniently you dont want to mention that if a slave looses an eye, or a tooth, he is free.
As opposed to the normal punishment of knocking out someone's tooth, which is that the guy whom you knocked out their tooth gets to knock out yours. The slave doesn't even get the satisfaction of punching you in the face.

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Straw man, it does not differentiate.
So? It's not up to the citizen to differentiate. Are you really saying that if some slave ran away from a master who paid good money for before his seven years of servitude is up and dispite 'good treatment,' said master has no means of redress? Then you don't even have a "butler" or "assistant" situation â€" that's just a boarder.

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If the Bible say you can buy slaves from other nations, and you must treat them well, according to the Mosaic laws, why do you want to imply that there are a difference, when there is no such evidence?
"Treating a slave well" doesn't mean that slaves are to be treated the same as citizens with full rights.

Exodus 21:20-21
20If a man strikes his male or female servant with a rod, and the servant dies by his hand, he shall surely be punished. 21However, if the slave gets up after a day or two, the owner shall not be punished, since the slave is his property.

Wow, a direct statement that these "not-slaves" of yours are property.

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You can sell your slaves or pass them down to hour children in your estate, but the law is clear, ON THE SABBATICAL YEAR, YOU WILL SET THE SLAVES FREE!!!
Which slaves? The one with an awl through their ears, or only the ones who haven't accepted perpetual servitude?

You don't seem to realize that all law has convolutions to serve multiple needs and circumstances. Jewish law is no exceptions. Take the Jubilee for example, which is what you're referring to. It's not just the "freeing of all slaves," your claim, but the absolution of all worldly debt. Well, what if someone just started their slavery that year, or took on debt that year? Gone? Really? Why would anyone take on any debt or slaves if they aren't going to get the full benefit out of it? The reason why we have courts is specifically to resolve such conflicts.

Also, the Jubilee only occured every 49 years (seven of seven), which is longer than most people lived.

The other thing is that, if all slaves were to be freed on the Jubilee, then why the reference to a slave serving his master for life in Exodus 21:5-6? It's not "serving his master until the next Jubilee", but "for life."


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Please supply me with the verses where there is reference to the foreign slave.
You have a short memory, don't you?

Leviticus 25:44 - "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."

If your female and male slaves come from other nations, they are foreign by definition.

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Says who?
Says your bible.

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If you perceive slavery from the Bible the same as what you perceive slavery in, say, 200 years ago, you will make such a mistake.
You confuse Biblical 'slavery' with your understanding to what you think it is.
You skip out on the reason for "Slavery" in Israel!
Deut 15:11-12
The slaves referred to here are specifically Hebrew slaves. It even says "Hebrew slaves" in my translation of Deuteronomy 15. The edict that they serve seven years refers only to those people who are Hebrews that are sold into slavery to pay off debt. That would not apply to non-Hebrew slaves, which is why Hebrew slaves are singled out specifically. And with Leviticus stating specifically where they are to trade slaves from foreign powers, there were certainly non-Hebrew slaves.

Now, what about Exodus 21:2-6?

2 “When you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for six years; then in the seventh he is to leave as a free man without paying anything. 3 If he arrives alone, he is to leave alone; if he arrives with a wife, his wife is to leave with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children belong to her master, and the man must leave alone.

More statements of ownership of people.

5 “But if the slave declares: ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I do not want to leave as a free man,’ 6 his master is to bring him to the judges and then bring him to the door or doorpost. His master must pierce his ear with an awl, and he will serve his master for life.

Seems pretty clear that this awling ritual is intended to make someone a slave for their life, and not just until the next Jubilee. Why the drama, if the wife and children merely just have to wait until their servitude is over, or until the next Jubilee, and if a slave does choose to do this, what happens when the next Jubilee comes around or their servitude is over? Do the wife and kids now have to leave their husband?

Or... some of these wives are permanent, perpetual foreign slaves that do not have a limit to their servitude, unlike Hebrew slaves, and this passage gives Biblical sanction to this particular form of blackmail.

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The intend of the "Bible slave" equals what we called 50 years ago a "Butler" and today call "Assistant..."
Then why don't translators not use those words instead of "slave" if that's what they are "equal" to?

Because they read in context and know that "slave" means "slave," that when you are property of someone else, even temporarily as in the case of indendured servitude, then the word "butler" and "assistant" are not fitting words to describe the situation the person is in.

And that's not to say that butlers and footmen were treated very kindly either, even when they were free men.

No, sweetheart, you're feeding me the big baloney burger, and I ain't eatin'.
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Unbeliever

Quote from: George Bernard ShawNo man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it means what he says.

Quote from: Eli S. Chesen, M.D.The Bible, then, is used not as an authority, but as a vehicle with which a man can promote his own prejudices.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Same as philosophy and ideology.  Pretty wrapped up prejudices.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mousetrap

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on August 08, 2018, 01:02:23 PM

Then why don't translators not use those words instead of "slave" if that's what they are "equal" to?

Because they read in context and know that "slave" means "slave," that when you are property of someone else, even temporarily as in the case of indendured servitude, then the word "butler" and "assistant" are not fitting words to describe the situation the person is in.

And that's not to say that butlers and footmen were treated very kindly either, even when they were free men.

No, sweetheart, you're feeding me the big baloney burger, and I ain't eatin'.
So that we can trick Atheists in blaming the Bible for something it does not say, to catch you out knowing you never read the Bible.
Just think how boring this forum would be if you understood the Bible for what it says!
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Cavebear

Quote from: Mousetrap on August 06, 2018, 03:22:58 AM
Oh, but it did!
It was also the Christians who fought wars against slavery to end it.

And fought wars to support it.  Mostly wars to support it. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on August 09, 2018, 04:06:39 AM
And fought wars to support it.  Mostly wars to support it.

Constantine keeps on giving.  Funny how this is in the Islam section.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: Mousetrap on August 09, 2018, 01:51:24 AM
So that we can trick Atheists in blaming the Bible for something it does not say, to catch you out knowing you never read the Bible.
Christians, on the whole, don't read their bible. That's why they're able to "believe" it. You, on the other hand, read into your bible, not read out of it. Your "biblical slave = butler/servant" canard is just that, a canard. Because there's another place where slaves are mentioned: The Egyptians enslavement of the Jews.

Exodus 1
11 So the Egyptians put slave drivers over the people of Israel. The slave drivers treated them badly and made them work hard. The Israelites built the cities of Pithom and Rameses so Pharaoh could store things there. 12 But the worse the slave drivers treated the Israelites, the more Israelites there were. So the Egyptians became afraid of them. 13 They made them work hard. They didn’t show them any pity. 14 The people suffered because of their hard labor. The slave drivers forced them to work with bricks and mud. And they made them do all kinds of work in the fields. The Egyptians didn’t show them any pity at all. They made them work very hard.

Now, what else does a slave driver drive but a slave? Clearly, the Israelis are slaves in a conventional sense, what we mean conventionally by a slave. The Israelis were treated badly and worked hard. You wouldn't confuse them with "butlers" or "assistants." These were people who were worked like dogs.

Exodus 2
5 Pharaoh’s daughter went down to the Nile River to take a bath. Her attendants were walking along the river bank. She saw the basket in the tall grass. So she sent her female slave to get it. 6 When she opened it, Pharaoh’s daughter saw the baby. He was crying. She felt sorry for him. “This is one of the Hebrew babies,” she said.

23 After a long time, the king of Egypt died. The people of Israel groaned because they were slaves. They also cried out to God. Their cry for help went up to him.

Here, we're treated to Israelis admitting directly that they are slaves. I don't know if the female slave mentioned in 2:5 was Hebrew, but she was a slave just the same, and there certainly were slaves in Egypt.

Exodus 6:5-6
5 Also, I have heard the groans of the Israelites. The Egyptians are keeping them as slaves. But I have remembered my covenant.

6 “So tell the people of Israel, ‘I am the Lord. I will throw off the heavy load the Egyptians have put on your shoulders. I will set you free from being slaves to them. I will reach out my arm and save you with mighty acts when I judge Egypt.

So the Egyptians' slavery was so bad that God was willing to punish them for it. And then there's the whole "Let my people go" drama that Moses and Pharaoh had to go through, which would be rendered a complete farce if the Israeli slaves sorry, servants were free to go all along. So, yeah, when the bible says "slave," it means a person held in bondage and not a free servant or butler.

And keep in mind that slave is the same word that is used later on in Exodus when laying down laws concerning slaves.

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Just think how boring this forum would be if you understood the Bible for what it says!
Well, given that this conversation is kinda boring for me, I therefore pass the criterion for understanding the Bible.
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Cavebear

Well, the whole bible, like all religious texts, is just a codified writing of what humans learned worked for them in their own places.  The texts followed the human experiences. Kind of like watching people throw nets to catch fish and then later saying that a deity told them to do it that way.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Munch

its funny seeing theists scream in denial of their own shit they worship.
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

Sal1981

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

There is abound of references to slavery and owning slaves, and how to treat slaves in the Bible.

Baruch

Quote from: Munch on August 12, 2018, 08:30:14 AM
its funny seeing theists scream in denial of their own shit they worship.

Protestantism isn't real Christianity anyway, it is a weird early modern heresy ;-)  So when you just make things up, you can say anything you like.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.