Author Topic: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator  (Read 561 times)

Offline Shiranu

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2018, 07:45:25 PM »
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And of course that one (overall minor) point means your camp aren't crazy warmongers. This isn't the court system, you can't get off on a bullshit technicality.

Try refuting the rest of my post, or even my general thesis, then come back.

The fact that we were bombed by the Japanese, rather than started the war (which had already been going on for years) is not a "minor point".

We also didn't start WW1 (which had been going on for years before we joined) or Vietnam (a continuation of the Anti-French Resistance War that had been going on for years). So again, hard to say the Americans started a war that had been going on for years.

Also, you use conscription as the basis for making someone a war hawk which is extremely disingenuous.

If we want to call being attacked a "minor issue", then the "War on Terror" easily outdoes any war Democrats started since Korea; it's been on for nearly 17 years and at least 370,000 direct casualties and 370,000 indirect casualties, with at least 200,000 civilians being killed and 10.1 million people being displaced, all on a bill that goes into the trillions of dollars.

Additionally the War on Terror can be directly linked to the rise of groups like ISIS and an increase in Wahhabism influence across the Middle East as we destabilized the region and funded radical groups who would fight our enemies for us (before becoming our enemies themselves).

So yes, nowadays Republicans are crazy warmongers. Mainstream Democrats today are light warmongers.

You do realise criticizing the Republicans for being absolutely batshit does not mean you are saying the Democrats are without guilt, right? There is some shit the Democrats do that piss me off to no end, and when Obama was president I was one of the main voices here criticizing his drone programs and (once I learned how horrible Israel actually is) his support of Netanyahu's Apartheid. But to pretend that the Republicans aren't crazy warmongers just because Democrats can be shitty too is extremely disingenuous, especially when you say that a Democrat started World War 2 when there was this guy called Hitler (and Emperor Hirohito) who had done some "minor things" for years before America got involved.
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Offline Hydra009

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2018, 07:58:28 PM »
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There is some shit the Democrats do that piss me off to no end, and when Obama was president I was one of the main voices here criticizing his drone programs and (once I learned how horrible Israel actually is) his support of Netanyahu's Apartheid.
That and the NSA/Snowden thing really got under my skin.  But those days seem like halcyon days of blissful contentment right now.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2018, 08:14:47 PM »
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That and the NSA/Snowden thing really got under my skin.  But those days seem like halcyon days of blissful contentment right now.

Oh, the good ol' days...
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Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2018, 08:18:36 PM »
The times, they are a changin'.
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"The Republicans went from Abraham Lincoln to Sarah Palin to Donald Trump. No wonder they don't believe in evolution."
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Offline Hydra009

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2018, 08:28:42 PM »
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Oh, the good ol' days...
I plan on telling the next generation that 2004 was best time ever.

Launches for World of Warcraft and City of Heroes.  RTS excellence with Rise of Nations and Dawn of War.  And the video game with the most advanced graphics ever - so good you could be forgiven for thinking you were there - Battlefield Vietnam.

It was a year of gaming bliss.  Nothing negative happened that year at all.

Offline SGOS

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2018, 09:44:17 PM »
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That and the NSA/Snowden thing really got under my skin.  But those days seem like halcyon days of blissful contentment right now.
I'm done saying the Republicans will never install a president worse than ___X___.  I'm now convinced that we are nowhere near he bottom.

Offline Baruch

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2018, 10:40:26 PM »
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The fact that we were bombed by the Japanese, rather than started the war (which had already been going on for years) is not a "minor point".

We also didn't start WW1 (which had been going on for years before we joined) or Vietnam (a continuation of the Anti-French Resistance War that had been going on for years). So again, hard to say the Americans started a war that had been going on for years.

Also, you use conscription as the basis for making someone a war hawk which is extremely disingenuous.

If we want to call being attacked a "minor issue", then the "War on Terror" easily outdoes any war Democrats started since Korea; it's been on for nearly 17 years and at least 370,000 direct casualties and 370,000 indirect casualties, with at least 200,000 civilians being killed and 10.1 million people being displaced, all on a bill that goes into the trillions of dollars.

Additionally the War on Terror can be directly linked to the rise of groups like ISIS and an increase in Wahhabism influence across the Middle East as we destabilized the region and funded radical groups who would fight our enemies for us (before becoming our enemies themselves).

So yes, nowadays Republicans are crazy warmongers. Mainstream Democrats today are light warmongers.

You do realise criticizing the Republicans for being absolutely batshit does not mean you are saying the Democrats are without guilt, right? There is some shit the Democrats do that piss me off to no end, and when Obama was president I was one of the main voices here criticizing his drone programs and (once I learned how horrible Israel actually is) his support of Netanyahu's Apartheid. But to pretend that the Republicans aren't crazy warmongers just because Democrats can be shitty too is extremely disingenuous, especially when you say that a Democrat started World War 2 when there was this guy called Hitler (and Emperor Hirohito) who had done some "minor things" for years before America got involved.

Sorry, but your history is .. inadequate.  The US had cut off oil to Japan, they had to do something or run out of fuel in two years.  That was an economic embargo (see Iran etc) that was an act of war.  FDR knew that.  The US was already fighting in China, against Japan, with the Flying Tigers aka Blackwater.  The US was already fighting Germany/Italy by trading with GB .. the Germans in self defense, sunk a couple of our convoy escorts before Dec 1941.  It was a big deal, Lend Lease, from Sept 1940.  Iran would be justified, dropping a nuke on the US, or a US ally (SA) if we embargo them again.

Yes, modern Israel is un-liberal.  Gotta kill them.  The Palestinians are so so liberal ;-)

The human race has been fighting since the Stone Age .. so according to you, nobody started any wars, because the Cavemen were responsible?

A huge factor in WW I, happened before WW I.  Teddy Roosevelt managed a reconciliation between France and GB, who had hated each other for 1000 years already.  Without the BEF in Belgium in 1914, France would have lost their war immediately.  The natural ally for GB was the German Empire.  Similarly the Russians were supposed to be allied to Germany also.  Their kings were all related to Queen Victoria.

Hillary was a warmonger (Women libbers have to be more masculine than men, to be taken seriously ... see Thatcher).  But then she wasn't a real Democrat.  All real Democrats are MLK, pacifist Christian ministers.  So I guess you aren't one either ;-)
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Offline Baruch

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2018, 10:49:51 PM »
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That and the NSA/Snowden thing really got under my skin.  But those days seem like halcyon days of blissful contentment right now.

They will shortly capture Julian Assange (deal with Ecuador) and flay him alive on TV, as a warning to others.  Snowden too.
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Offline Shiranu

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2018, 11:57:45 PM »
Baruch: Again, America did not start it, the Japanese desire to construct an empire and expansionist policies did. They had been fighting China, Korea, Russia long before we got involved. The war in the Pacific was well underway long before we put sanctions on Japan.

FDR didn't just randomly decide one day, "You know what would be fun? Denying Japan of strategic resources and sending our troops to fight for China!". That was done in response to a war that was already well underway. Ergo, the United States still did not start WW2 (and besides, the Pacific Theatre really heating up was after the European conflict was well underway as well, so it's doubly incorrect to say America started it).
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Offline Baruch

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2018, 07:01:28 AM »
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Baruch: Again, America did not start it, the Japanese desire to construct an empire and expansionist policies did. They had been fighting China, Korea, Russia long before we got involved. The war in the Pacific was well underway long before we put sanctions on Japan.

FDR didn't just randomly decide one day, "You know what would be fun? Denying Japan of strategic resources and sending our troops to fight for China!". That was done in response to a war that was already well underway. Ergo, the United States still did not start WW2 (and besides, the Pacific Theatre really heating up was after the European conflict was well underway as well, so it's doubly incorrect to say America started it).

Sorry, but you must have gotten an A on your government provided education.  I did too.  But like the Ancient Mariner .. I woke up wiser and sadder.  Americans are no different from any other people, no different from Germans or Japanese (other than having no culture).  The Pacific War started in China in 1931.  The European war started in 1936 with occupation of the Rhineland and Italian invasion of Ethiopia.  Please read a book.
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Offline SGOS

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2018, 08:46:01 AM »
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Sorry, but your history is .. inadequate.  The US had cut off oil to Japan, they had to do something or run out of fuel in two years.  That was an economic embargo (see Iran etc) that was an act of war.  FDR knew that.
Japan started the war when they attacked the US
No, the US started the war when they created an oil embargo.
No, Japan started the war when they invaded China.
No, China started the war when they pissed off Japan.
No, something started the war before that.

You can trace and imagine your way to the first cause, but at some point any theist will tell you, you must assign cause to whatever pleases an a priori claim.

I'm going with Japan as starting the war.  They could have prevented the war by stopping their Asian aggression.  They could have avoided the embargo.  I understand the argument that the US started the war.  But it's an oratorical stretch at best, and mostly bullshit.  An embargo is a sanction designed to force a country too proud to reason their way to the inevitability of their actions into the most beneficial of outcomes.  Japan made a grievous error of reason by bombing US forces in Pearl Harbor.  That was an act of war.  The fact that they felt justified doesn't give them a pass.  They bombed us.

When the electric company turns off your power, they are not starting a war.  You pay them the bill, and they turn the power back on.  If you buy a gun and attack the central office, you are the person at fault.  Sometimes you don't think you are at fault, but that is not your decision to make.  The power company is more powerful than... than... Well, than You.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 09:09:41 AM by SGOS »

Offline Shiranu

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2018, 10:05:14 AM »
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Sorry, but you must have gotten an A on your government provided education.  I did too.  But like the Ancient Mariner .. I woke up wiser and sadder.  Americans are no different from any other people, no different from Germans or Japanese (other than having no culture).  The Pacific War started in China in 1931.  The European war started in 1936 with occupation of the Rhineland and Italian invasion of Ethiopia.  Please read a book.

Yeah, you are right actually on the Pacific War starting first, I'm not sure why I said that. However, the fact that it started that much earlier does kinda reinforce my point that we didn't start it...
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Offline Baruch

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2018, 12:48:08 PM »
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Japan started the war when they attacked the US
No, the US started the war when they created an oil embargo.
No, Japan started the war when they invaded China.
No, China started the war when they pissed off Japan.
No, something started the war before that.

You can trace and imagine your way to the first cause, but at some point any theist will tell you, you must assign cause to whatever pleases an a priori claim.

I'm going with Japan as starting the war.  They could have prevented the war by stopping their Asian aggression.  They could have avoided the embargo.  I understand the argument that the US started the war.  But it's an oratorical stretch at best, and mostly bullshit.  An embargo is a sanction designed to force a country too proud to reason their way to the inevitability of their actions into the most beneficial of outcomes.  Japan made a grievous error of reason by bombing US forces in Pearl Harbor.  That was an act of war.  The fact that they felt justified doesn't give them a pass.  They bombed us.

When the electric company turns off your power, they are not starting a war.  You pay them the bill, and they turn the power back on.  If you buy a gun and attack the central office, you are the person at fault.  Sometimes you don't think you are at fault, but that is not your decision to make.  The power company is more powerful than... than... Well, than You.

The god-emperor of Japan wasn't FDR's bitch.  Neither were the other Axis leaders.  But yes, if they hadn't been megalomaniacs, the Axis leaders might have even made it to old age.  Hirohito got special treatment.  But today, more so than the 1930s, we view the US as the only-superpower.  At the time, the US had one of the smallest standing armies.  Nobody was scared of us.

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We could have asked the League of Nations to go arrest Hirohito etc.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 12:52:37 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2018, 02:10:35 AM »
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Ah, Democrats ... he ones who always bring us big wars like Korea, and Vietnam.

And how about those CIA guys, screwing everyone since OSS days in WW II?  Ah, but Americans are the master race, we can fuck anyone we like.

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Speaking of fossils from the Vietnam war ... patron saint for the new "nuke them first" Democrats.

Old quote and he has changed his views on this matter.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Failed Russian Hack Attempt of Anti-Putin Senator
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2018, 02:13:10 AM »
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Yeah, you are right actually on the Pacific War starting first, I'm not sure why I said that. However, the fact that it started that much earlier does kinda reinforce my point that we didn't start it...

Actually, the US was already helping the European Allies before Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and other Pacific sites.  The difference is merely technical.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

 

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