Author Topic: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.  (Read 2175 times)

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #210 on: September 15, 2018, 07:17:22 PM »
Yeah, I'm not holding my breath, either.
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“Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”
Miyamoto Musashi

Offline SGOS

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #211 on: September 15, 2018, 07:32:10 PM »
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Wait, you mean that idiot Mousetrap?
Yes.

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #212 on: September 15, 2018, 08:47:48 PM »
I thought it was "Mousetripe"?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline trdsf

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #213 on: September 16, 2018, 09:32:47 AM »
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"where is everyone"? Maybe billions of light years away, and millions of years in the past or future. Fermi booted that one, he assumed that aliens would be interested in us, could get to us, and would get to us. All assumptions without basis in fact.
Well, and the other problem is that "where is everybody" is a reasonable question only in a steady-state universe (which was still a viable theory of the universe You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login).  If the universe has a beginning, there are reasons you can't have an arbitrarily old civilization that could have explored the galaxy by now — the need for metal-rich1 interstellar clouds, at a minimum, and that takes two or three generation of heavy stars going supernova to collect.  So it may well take nearly ten billion years for there to be enough stuff that's not primordial hydrogen and helium to make a world that has all the ingredients to make life possible.

I think it's entirely plausible that while we're not necessarily the first, we're among the first wave of intelligences to arise in the universe.  And looking around at this world, I can well believe we're a rough draft.



1: 'Metal' in astronomers' usage: any element that isn't hydrogen or helium
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #214 on: September 16, 2018, 09:36:35 AM »
That assumes a model for intelligent life that is the same as ours.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline SGOS

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #215 on: September 16, 2018, 09:38:22 AM »
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1: 'Metal' in astronomers' usage: any element that isn't hydrogen or helium
That's strange.

Offline Baruch

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #216 on: September 16, 2018, 12:04:30 PM »
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That's strange.

Almost all elements are in stars.  So basically it is plasma, no matter what element you are talking about.  The amount of room temperature elements is tiny, however normative and essential to life.  So what are even regular metals, when they are a conductive gas?  They don't have the usual metallic properties.  Just as hydrogen under high pressure, in the core of Jupiter, exists as a metal (hence the strong magnetic field of Jupiter).

So in nucleo genesis, there are three generations ... Big Bang (Hydrogen + Helium + trace Lithium).  Regular stellar fusion (Lithium up to Iron).  Supernova formation (all elements with heavier nuclei than iron).  The lower elements are exothermic, but above iron they are endothermic.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 12:06:30 PM by Baruch »
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Offline trdsf

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #217 on: September 16, 2018, 02:23:17 PM »
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That's strange.
Strange, perhaps, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login.  Since the vast majority of the universe -- by mass or by particle count -- is either hydrogen or helium, astronomers use 'metal' to mean anything heavier.  70.57% of the universe's mass and 91.00% of the universe's atoms is hydrogen alone; helium makes up 27.52% of the mass and 8.87% of the atoms.  Everything else: the carbon we're made of, the oxygen we breathe, the nitrogen that makes up the bulk of our atmosphere and the silicon that makes up over a quarter of our planet, that's in that leftover 1.91% of mass and 0.13% of atoms.  So for astronomers, there is a great convenience in just bundling those leftover crumbs up under the generic term 'metals'.

So when they talk about a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login like our Sun, they don't just mean aluminium and iron, they also mean neon and carbon.
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #218 on: September 16, 2018, 05:27:30 PM »
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And looking around at this world, I can well believe we're a rough draft.
It would be nice to be able to think of humanity as a diamond in the rough, that will one day outshine the galaxy.

But that's a bit too optimistic for my taste.
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“Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”
Miyamoto Musashi

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #219 on: September 16, 2018, 05:34:17 PM »
Came across this interesting tid-bit this morning:

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It's not an unexpected finding, but it was apparently pretty hard to pin down. It had to be somewhere, and intergalactic space was about the only place left to look.

Still no God, though...
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“Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”
Miyamoto Musashi

Offline Baruch

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #220 on: September 16, 2018, 06:42:31 PM »
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It would be nice to be able to think of humanity as a diamond in the rough, that will one day outshine the galaxy.

But that's a bit too optimistic for my taste.

Only if you are named Aladdin, and you have a genie working for you.

A partial explanation of missing mass.  Doesn't help with "dark energy" pushing galaxies apart, or "dark matter" controlling part of the rotation of galaxies.  But definitely leading edge science.  This was previously discounted, though I think an upper limit to the amount could have been estimated earlier.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 06:46:49 PM by Baruch »
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Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #221 on: September 17, 2018, 07:35:36 AM »
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #222 on: September 19, 2018, 05:08:02 AM »
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Yeah, I'm not holding my breath, either.

The problem is that you can't really know what is on (or in) Mars until people go there and look. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #223 on: September 19, 2018, 01:58:36 PM »
I'd volunteer to go in a heartbeat, even if it meant I'd never make it back to Earth.
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“Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”
Miyamoto Musashi

Offline Cavebear

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #224 on: September 19, 2018, 02:44:25 PM »
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I'd volunteer to go in a heartbeat, even if it meant I'd never make it back to Earth.

Commercial companies will get experts there.  There might be gold in them thar hills.  Or even, better, water.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

 

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