Author Topic: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.  (Read 4747 times)

Offline trdsf

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #105 on: August 10, 2018, 04:00:27 PM »
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Sorry, just a lump term. Anything beyond Mars that could be useful.

And comets might have the most ice, but as you say, it's currently out of reach. The pushers I spoke of could be guided by a cell phone.

ETA: Remember that the rings of Saturn are made of mostly ice. Enough to make a planet the size of Mars, I think.
But comets don't stay out of reach, unlike centaurs and plutinos/KBOs.  They're on highly elliptical orbits that bring them in close periodically.  The problem with them is not the distance, it's the speeds they attain as they fall in.  The other problem is social: I strongly suspect that absent an actual existential threat to the survival of the human species, very few people will be on board with the idea of harvesting Halley, Encke, Tempel-Swift, or any of the other major short-period comets.

The rings of Saturn are a good solution -- they're also likely to be small enough to be easily manageable.  I don't think you can make a Mars out of the rings, but you could certainly water the existing Mars with them.
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #106 on: August 10, 2018, 04:09:52 PM »
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The rings of Saturn are a good solution -- they're also likely to be small enough to be easily manageable.  I don't think you can make a Mars out of the rings, but you could certainly water the existing Mars with them.
That's an idea I hadn't considered, and it seems like a good one, since they have a lot of water ice in them. They'd be a hell of a lot easier to deal with than comets or other debris.
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Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #107 on: August 10, 2018, 10:58:45 PM »
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But comets don't stay out of reach, unlike centaurs and plutinos/KBOs.  They're on highly elliptical orbits that bring them in close periodically.  The problem with them is not the distance, it's the speeds they attain as they fall in.  The other problem is social: I strongly suspect that absent an actual existential threat to the survival of the human species, very few people will be on board with the idea of harvesting Halley, Encke, Tempel-Swift, or any of the other major short-period comets.
That's why I didn't suggest comets. Add to that the fact that they're rather larger than we want for this job.
Quote
The rings of Saturn are a good solution -- they're also likely to be small enough to be easily manageable.  I don't think you can make a Mars out of the rings, but you could certainly water the existing Mars with them.
I was suggesting that the volume of the rings is about that of Mars, not that we'd make a Mars out of the rings.

Ice bombardment adds heat, oxygen, and water. Sounds like a plan to me.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
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Offline Cavebear

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #108 on: August 12, 2018, 04:26:28 AM »
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Pretty much.  A project for the next few millennia just might be not only adding a few nickel-iron asteroids to Mars' core, but melting it and starting up the planetary dynamo again.

And then we get to watch what happens when plate tectonics re-start!

That would take a LOT and LOT of asteroids to bulk up Mars to where it could hold a human-tolerable atmosphere.  Never mind the time it would take for the iron/nickle to get to the core.  And wouldn't all that splashdown launch enough debris to affect Earth?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #109 on: August 12, 2018, 05:10:11 AM »
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That would take a LOT and LOT of asteroids to bulk up Mars to where it could hold a human-tolerable atmosphere.  Never mind the time it would take for the iron/nickle to get to the core.  And wouldn't all that splashdown launch enough debris to affect Earth?
Ice, not nickle-iron rocks. From elsewhere:

A "mother ship" in orbit around Saturn sends out "pushers" to find chunks of ice in the rings of the right size. ("right size" to be determined, but not huge.) When one is found the pusher starts it on its way to Mars. The pushers get data from the mothership regarding thrust duration, etc., based on a preliminary push that "weighs" the berg based on delta vee from a standard impulse of the engines. This allows the pushers to be controlled by computers about as small as a cell phone. The berg heads off to Mars, and impacts on the side of the planet opposite Valles Marineris. VM is one of the "low spots" on Mars and would be one of the first places the atmosphere will start to collect an get denser. The impacts are arranged so that the colonists are well away from the hit. The benefit of the impact includes free oxygen, water and a little more heat in the atmosphere.

If conditions at Saturn are favorable a hundred pushers could send 100 bergs to Mars at a time. The amount of time needed to find the next candidate berg could be shortened by having "finders" who located candidate bergs and plant a signaling device on them.

One hundred bergs would be a minimum for a "day's work" for the pushers, but we might be able to get them up to six a day each. That would be 219,000 bergs a year, or 21,900,000 bergs in a century. I won't speculate on the amount of ice that would be.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #110 on: August 12, 2018, 05:13:15 AM »
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Ice, not nickle-iron rocks. From elsewhere:

A "mother ship" in orbit around Saturn sends out "pushers" to find chunks of ice in the rings of the right size. ("right size" to be determined, but not huge.) When one is found the pusher starts it on its way to Mars. The pushers get data from the mothership regarding thrust duration, etc., based on a preliminary push that "weighs" the berg based on delta vee from a standard impulse of the engines. This allows the pushers to be controlled by computers about as small as a cell phone. The berg heads off to Mars, and impacts on the side of the planet opposite Valles Marineris. VM is one of the "low spots" on Mars and would be one of the first places the atmosphere will start to collect an get denser. The impacts are arranged so that the colonists are well away from the hit. The benefit of the impact includes free oxygen, water and a little more heat in the atmosphere.

If conditions at Saturn are favorable a hundred pushers could send 100 bergs to Mars at a time. The amount of time needed to find the next candidate berg could be shortened by having "finders" who located candidate bergs and plant a signaling device on them.

One hundred bergs would be a minimum for a "day's work" for the pushers, but we might be able to get them up to six a day each. That would be 219,000 bergs a year, or 21,900,000 bergs in a century. I won't speculate on the amount of ice that would be.

Mars needs mass to hold an atmosphere.  Ice (water) won't do it, sorry.  Mars needs matter that won't evaporate away like it's possible ancient atmosphere did.  Rocks, metals...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #111 on: August 12, 2018, 05:50:44 AM »
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Mars needs mass to hold an atmosphere.  Ice (water) won't do it, sorry.  Mars needs matter that won't evaporate away like it's possible ancient atmosphere did.  Rocks, metals...
I have to repeat some things a lot.

It took millions of years, if not a billion, for Mars to lose its atmosphere. The loss was due to FRICTION between solar particles and gases. That's not a speedy process. The process suggested could HELP produce a breathable atmosphere in less than a thousand years, I suspect.

I haven't actually created an atmosphere on Mars, I'm speculating on one possible means. It may be that a combination of methods is used in the end. But it won't be as ephemeral as people seem to think.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #112 on: August 12, 2018, 06:04:30 AM »
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I have to repeat some things a lot.

It took millions of years, if not a billion, for Mars to lose its atmosphere. The loss was due to FRICTION between solar particles and gases. That's not a speedy process. The process suggested could HELP produce a breathable atmosphere in less than a thousand years, I suspect.

I haven't actually created an atmosphere on Mars, I'm speculating on one possible means. It may be that a combination of methods is used in the end. But it won't be as ephemeral as people seem to think.

I like you, but apparently I have to repeat myself a lot too.  You can't create an atmosphere on Mars that will last any length of time unless the core increases in mass and therefore the gravity of the planet to hold any atmosphere we create by any means. 

Every method of creating an atmosphere on Mars amenable to humans would be very temporary unless the mass of the planet can hold what is created.  Surface solutions will all be temporary, if not being lost to space as fast as created. 

You can't get over the problem that Mars just isn't massive enough to hold an atmosphere.  That's why it doesn't have one suitable to humans.

Sorry.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #113 on: August 12, 2018, 06:06:15 AM »
Mars is a very dry version of Antarctica (very cold) ... minus penguins ;-(
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #114 on: August 12, 2018, 06:09:38 AM »
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I like you, but apparently I have to repeat myself a lot too.  You can't create an atmosphere on Mars that will last any length of time unless the core increases in mass and therefore the gravity of the planet to hold any atmosphere we create by any means. 

Every method of creating an atmosphere on Mars amenable to humans would be very temporary unless the mass of the planet can hold what is created.  Surface solutions will all be temporary, if not being lost to space as fast as created. 

You can't get over the problem that Mars just isn't massive enough to hold an atmosphere.  That's why it doesn't have one suitable to humans.

Sorry.
And how long is "temporary"? Would the residents not act to maintain the atmosphere?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #115 on: August 12, 2018, 06:13:11 AM »
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And how long is "temporary"? Would the residents not act to maintain the atmosphere?

Easy if they eat beans ;-))
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #116 on: August 12, 2018, 06:21:49 AM »
On 5 November 2015, NASA announced that data from MAVEN shows that the erosion of Mars' atmosphere increases significantly during solar storms. This shift took place between about 4.2 to 3.7 billion years ago, as the shielding effect of the global magnetic field was lost when the planet's internal dynamo cooled.
Atmosphere of Mars - Wikipedia
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We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #117 on: August 12, 2018, 06:23:45 AM »
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On 5 November 2015, NASA announced that data from MAVEN shows that the erosion of Mars' atmosphere increases significantly during solar storms. This shift took place between about 4.2 to 3.7 billion years ago, as the shielding effect of the global magnetic field was lost when the planet's internal dynamo cooled.
Atmosphere of Mars - Wikipedia
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QED
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #118 on: August 12, 2018, 06:41:01 AM »
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QED
A billion years isn't good enough for you? Tell me, please, how long after an atmosphere is established on Mars will it be gone again? Please don't account for people maintaining it, the people who actually breathe it and need an atmosphere. Just the inanimate option, nobody there to tweak it and keep it going. 'Cause that would nullify your objections.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: This is huge: *current* liquid water on Mars.
« Reply #119 on: August 12, 2018, 06:53:21 AM »
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A billion years isn't good enough for you? Tell me, please, how long after an atmosphere is established on Mars will it be gone again? Please don't account for people maintaining it, the people who actually breathe it and need an atmosphere. Just the inanimate option, nobody there to tweak it and keep it going. 'Cause that would nullify your objections.

An atmosphere WOULDN'T be "established" on Mars without more gravity to hold it there.  I'm not sure what you mean by "the inaminate option".
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

 

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