Biblical contradictions.

[Cavebear]

Certainly the pivot around which the galaxy eventually turned.

There was a disturbing amount of mind control -- some of it quite aggressive -- going on in the extended Foundation universe.  R. Giskard was circumspect in Robots of Dawn, but by the end of Robots and Empire, he was quite cavalierly mentally pushing around not just random inconvenient humans, but his own mistress Gladia.  The Mule, of course, was indifferent to how his ability affected others.  I always though of Han Pritcher as the most tragic character in Foundation: despite his obvious abilities he was only briefly the master of his own fate.  Even after the Mule died, the Second Foundation never bothered to release him from the Mule's control â€" he's referred to in "...And Now You Don't" as having succeeded the Mule as First Citizen and warring with the (First) Foundation, so obviously he was never de-controlled even though we know the Second Foundation could break the Conversion.

Daneel at least appears to have used his control with more care and delicacy than Giskard did, but like Giskard did with Lije Baley, Daneel didn't hesitate to put the whammy on Seldon to prevent him from being able to talk about Daneel and his abilities.

I didn't remember that about Pritcher.  I might consider that the lack of his deprogramming helped the Foundation path get corrected.  Well, it's not like there weren't some flaws in the overall logic.    What if The Mule wasn't infertile, though.  Would his descendants beat the Second Foundation and beyond?

Actually, I think the whole concept fell apart after Second Foundation. 

[trdsf]

I didn't remember that about Pritcher.  I might consider that the lack of his deprogramming helped the Foundation path get corrected.  Well, it's not like there weren't some flaws in the overall logic.    What if The Mule wasn't infertile, though.  Would his descendants beat the Second Foundation and beyond?

Actually, I think the whole concept fell apart after Second Foundation.

Yeah, I really didn't care for the whole Gaia/Galaxia thing, nor did I really like any of the new characters in Foundation's Edge/Foundation and Earth.  Trevize was a jerk, and Bliss was too self-righteous by half, and Pelorat was something of a non-entity.

Spotty as they were, though, they were infinitely superior to Foundation's Fear, which completely put me off reading any of the other non-Asimov Foundation books, or anything else written by Benford.

[Cavebear]

Yeah, I really didn't care for the whole Gaia/Galaxia thing, nor did I really like any of the new characters in Foundation's Edge/Foundation and Earth.  Trevize was a jerk, and Bliss was too self-righteous by half, and Pelorat was something of a non-entity.

Spotty as they were, though, they were infinitely superior to Foundation's Fear, which completely put me off reading any of the other non-Asimov Foundation books, or anything else written by Benford.

I think I stopped reading the series before you did.  Or my memory is worse than I thought.  Both seem equal possibilities.

[Hydra009]

Yeah, I really didn't care for the whole Gaia/Galaxia thing, nor did I really like any of the new characters in Foundation's Edge/Foundation and Earth.  Trevize was a jerk, and Bliss was too self-righteous by half, and Pelorat was something of a non-entity.

I kinda liked the Galaxia idea.  It's an attempt to shore up some of the problems with the Empire and the Foundation.  Even if the Foundation were to fully blossom and became an amazingly forward-thinking and stable Empire, it's still an empire.  Empires inevitably rise and fall.  In order to head that off, you have to fundamentally change the nature of either the empire or humanity as a whole.  While the term "Gaia" has unfortunate and unscientific implications, at least Asimov took the series in a new and unexpected direction.

I have a really sour impression of the end of the last book - not because of Asimov - but because while I was literally on the last few pages, the car I was in had some sort of problem and we had to pull off to the side of the road (I wasn't driving, btw).  I remember quickly skimming through the last two pages and my brother was looking to me to deal with the situation (there wasn't anything I could do except wait for the tow truck) and yelling at me for being distracted.  I hate being interrupted, even for relatively serious things.  Is it too much to ask to be left alone for a minute?

[trdsf]

I kinda liked the Galaxia idea.  It's an attempt to shore up some of the problems with the Empire and the Foundation.  Even if the Foundation were to fully blossom and became an amazingly forward-thinking and stable Empire, it's still an empire.  Empires inevitably rise and fall.  In order to head that off, you have to fundamentally change the nature of either the empire or humanity as a whole.  While the term "Gaia" has unfortunate and unscientific implications, at least Asimov took the series in a new and unexpected direction.

I have a hard time imagining Galaxia as being anything other than the end of human history without actually being the end of humanity.  And I was really disappointed with the reason for choosing Galaxia, which struck me as mundane and more than a little paranoid.

I would have preferred a Second Foundation-managed future where they would have continually calculated a better society as their understanding grew, while still preserving free will.  It never seemed to me that the Second Empire would have to stay an empire; I assumed the social/psychological science of the Second Foundation would advance, as the physical sciences did under the First Foundation.  After all, as presented in the last two books, the First Foundation was more a federation than an empire, and that suggested to me that the Second Empire would be an elective "monarchy" like the Holy Roman Empire rather than a hereditary one, probably retaining the title 'Mayor' out of historical momentum.  'Empire' struck me as a word of historical necessity rather than an actual description of the state, much like Japan has an emperor, but is a parliamentary democracy.

[Hydra009]

Good points.  Yeah, I suppose they could develop away from an empire in the traditional sense of the word.  And yes, the alien thing was a bit mental.

Though I do love some good sequel bait and the prospect of aliens was definitely an interesting possibility.  Maybe not invasion exactly, but alien influence...alien tampering with the galaxy as we know it could've had huge ramifications for the Seldon Plan that would dwarf the momentary ripple of the Mule.

[trdsf]

Good points.  Yeah, I suppose they could develop away from an empire in the traditional sense of the word.  And yes, the alien thing was a bit mental.

Though I do love some good sequel bait and the prospect of aliens was definitely an interesting possibility.  Maybe not invasion exactly, but alien influence...alien tampering with the galaxy as we know it could've had huge ramifications for the Seldon Plan that would dwarf the momentary ripple of the Mule.

As a fan, and as an Asimov fan particularly, I always thought it tragic that we never got to see his vision of the culmination of the Seldon Plan.  Of course, according to Janet Jeppson Asimov, when he killed off Hari Seldon at the end of Forward the Foundation, he kind of killed off himself, and was able to accept death at the age of 72.  In many ways, Seldon was Asimov's self-insert into his universe, especially viewed in the context of Prelude to Foundation and Forward the Foundation.

On the other hand, I am grateful that he avoided the literary disasters that Arthur C Clarke got into with Gentry Lee and the later Rama books â€" which, bluntly, sucked rocks at no less than 150 pounds per square inch.  Having read Clarke on his own, I can only blame Lee for the psychosexual mess that Rama II, Rama Revealed and Gardens of Rama were.  At least when Asimov worked with others to co-write novels, it was with definite geniuses like Silverberg.

[Cavebear]

As a fan, and as an Asimov fan particularly, I always thought it tragic that we never got to see his vision of the culmination of the Seldon Plan.  Of course, according to Janet Jeppson Asimov, when he killed off Hari Seldon at the end of Forward the Foundation, he kind of killed off himself, and was able to accept death at the age of 72.  In many ways, Seldon was Asimov's self-insert into his universe, especially viewed in the context of Prelude to Foundation and Forward the Foundation.

On the other hand, I am grateful that he avoided the literary disasters that Arthur C Clarke got into with Gentry Lee and the later Rama books â€" which, bluntly, sucked rocks at no less than 150 pounds per square inch.  Having read Clarke on his own, I can only blame Lee for the psychosexual mess that Rama II, Rama Revealed and Gardens of Rama were.  At least when Asimov worked with others to co-write novels, it was with definite geniuses like Silverberg.

I think I skimmed a description of Rama and said "no".  And that was when I was buying most any sci-fi book available in paperback (I was broke then).

[Unbeliever]

I've lately been enjoying Charles Sheffield's Convergent Series, and Transvergence. Quite good!

[Cavebear]

I've lately been enjoying Charles Sheffield's Convergent Series, and Transvergence. Quite good!

I still have the 'Human' series by Robert Sawyer on my shelf begging to be read.  But I spend too much time here hobnobbing with my fellow wizards...

[luckswallowsall]

It seems to me that the most obvious biblical contradiction of all is the two creation stories.

[Mike Cl]

It seems to me that the most obvious biblical contradiction of all is the two creation stories.

Yes, they are very glaring.  But one of sooooooo many more. 

[Cavebear]

All of all religious texts are mostly contradicory.

[Baruch]

All of all religious texts are mostly contradicory.

Anthologies of poetry usually are.  And fictional.

[Cavebear]

Anthologies of poetry usually are.  And fictional.

How nice that you agree.