Hi

[WingsofRefuge]

Understandable.  But that type of evidence is purely personal.  I have had those experiences myself.  And I've had non-experiences as well; experiences I did not have even though I followed all the rules and prayed with all my heart and my head--nothing.  So, looking for proof inside was part of my exploring--still is a little bit.  On searching for evidence outside myself I have found none, zip, nadda; yes, I've looked and still am to an extend.  The structure of nature is, too me, a strike against their being a god.  And I see disasters and harm befalling all--good, bad or indifferent.  That all adds up to no evidence for me.

I understand. Looking around... it can be hard to believe, or even want to. However, that's actually part of what I've come through. I had an amazing family and, unfortunately, a pretty rough childhood. And yet, I am beginning to understand why.. even if only a little...

However, I understand that this is still personal evidence. ðŸ™,

[Unbeliever]

One should.  Jacob had to wrestle with an angel all night, until dawn, before he got renamed Israel ;-)

255. Was Jacob's renaming irrevocable?
Yes

Gen 32:28

And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Gen 35:10

And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called hi name Israel.

No

Gen 46:2

And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, here am I.

[note: and hundreds of other verses continue to call him Jacob.  In fact,Yahweh is known as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - not Abraham, Isaac, and Israel...]


From Biblical Contradictions - by category: History - Old Testament

[Unbeliever]

I was reading a book yesterday, one that I'd just begun reading, and my buddy Cameron was sitting nearby. I felt, for no particular reason at all, that I'd encounter in the book a character named Cameron. Guess what? A couple of chapters later I encountered a character named Cameron!

Should I count that as evidence that I'm psychic?

I don't think so...coincidence just happens.

[WingsofRefuge]

255. Was Jacob's renaming irrevocable?
Yes

Gen 32:28


Gen 35:10

No

Gen 46:2
[note: and hundreds of other verses continue to call him Jacob.  In fact,Yahweh is known as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - not Abraham, Isaac, and Israel...]


From Biblical Contradictions - by category: History - Old Testament

I'm not certain. Could I research it and come back?
I'm learning that if I look for an answer to a question like that, I can usually find one. Like Matthew and Luke appear to give different fathers to Joseph, when in actuality, one of them is actually his father-in-law.

[WingsofRefuge]

I don't think so...coincidence just happens.
[/quote]


MaybeðŸ™,

[Unbeliever]

I'm not certain. Could I research it and come back?

Well, it wasn't specifically aimed at you MT, but feel free to do research if you like.

[WingsofRefuge]

I found an article. ðŸ™,

After Jacob’s struggle with the Lord at Peniel, the Lord gave Jacob a new name: Israel. And God gave the reason: “Because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome” (Genesis 32:28). Later, God appears to Jacob/Israel again in Bethel, reaffirms the name change, and gives him the same covenant that Abraham had received (Genesis 35:9â€"12). Thus the “heel-catcher” became “one who struggles with God.” It was before he met with God in Bethel that Jacob purposefully put away his idols and purified himself (verse 2).

After the name change, some passages in Genesis refer to Jacob as “Jacob” (Genesis 33:1; 34:7; 35:15; 37:1) and others as “Israel” (Genesis 35:21; 37:3; 43:6; 46:1). Some have suggested that the name Jacob represents his old nature and Israel his new. That is, he is called “Jacob” when functioning in his carnal old nature, but he is called “Israel” when he is acting out of his new nature. There could be limited merit in this suggestion in some passages, and it would parallel the Christian’s experience as presented in Ephesians 4:22â€"24

In the end, however, it is best not to make too much of the Jacob/Israel distinction, since some passages include both Jacob and Israel within the same immediate context (e.g., Genesis 37:1â€"3). Also, there are several psalms that use both names side by side: “Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!” (Psalm 53:6) and “He decreed statutes for Jacob and established the law in Israel” (Psalm 78:5). The parallelism of the poetry identifies the names Jacob and Israel as synonymous, and both names can represent the nation as well as the individual.

[Blackleaf]

How does one win a wrestling match with the God of the universe in the first place? It's such a bizarre story, and no one seems to have a good answer. It'd be like if the Pencil Pusher beat Superman in a fight, only even more ridiculous. The only explanation I can think of that makes sense is to take it from a fictional perspective. The early Old Testament folks didn't conceive of Yahweh being the omnipotent being he is today. After all, God was afraid to send his troops into battle because the enemy had iron (the bane of magical creatures). So this weaker version of God could conceivably lose in a fight.

[Baruch]

How does one win a wrestling match with the God of the universe in the first place? It's such a bizarre story, and no one seems to have a good answer. It'd be like if the Pencil Pusher beat Superman in a fight, only even more ridiculous. The only explanation I can think of that makes sense is to take it from a fictional perspective. The early Old Testament folks didn't conceive of Yahweh being the omnipotent being he is today. After all, God was afraid to send his troops into battle because the enemy had iron (the bane of magical creatures). So this weaker version of God could conceivably lose in a fight.

Rabbis had a hard time explaining that one too, so they lied.  Clergy always lies.

[Baruch]

How do you have a "relationship" with something that doesn't exist?

You have a relationship with Hillary ... how does that work?  Apparently a personal messiah for many here ... and here I though y'all thought Obama was your personal messiah ;-)

[Baruch]

Understandable.  But that type of evidence is purely personal.  I have had those experiences myself.  And I've had non-experiences as well; experiences I did not have even though I followed all the rules and prayed with all my heart and my head--nothing.  So, looking for proof inside was part of my exploring--still is a little bit.  On searching for evidence outside myself I have found none, zip, nadda; yes, I've looked and still am to an extend.  The structure of nature is, too me, a strike against their being a god.  And I see disasters and harm befalling all--good, bad or indifferent.  That all adds up to no evidence for me.

What is the medical term for people who deny their own experience?  Of course, if you were drunk at the time ...

[Baruch]

I was reading a book yesterday, one that I'd just begun reading, and my buddy Cameron was sitting nearby. I felt, for no particular reason at all, that I'd encounter in the book a character named Cameron. Guess what? A couple of chapters later I encountered a character named Cameron!

Should I count that as evidence that I'm psychic?

I don't think so...coincidence just happens.

You caught us .. all theists secretly support Putin!  Bwahaha.  Psychic?  No, something more medical, sorry.

[Unbeliever]

Rabbis had a hard time explaining that one too, so they lied.  Clergy always lies.

Yeah, pious lies have been the mainstay of religions from ancient times to modern:

Pious Lies

[Baruch]

Yeah, pious lies have been the mainstay of religions down through time:

Pious Lies

Political lies aren't even pious, they are impious.

[Mike Cl]

What is the medical term for people who deny their own experience?  Of course, if you were drunk at the time ...

I'm beginning to wonder about myself.  Why do I bother to respond to your idiotic dribblings?  Never on this board have I stated I deny my own existence?  You must be a close cousin to Trump for it seems most of what comes out of your mouth (well, actually on this forum, fingers) is either an outright lie or at best fictional.