Author Topic: News for crickets ... that is all I hear about this ... just crickets ...  (Read 7605 times)

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I hate what every politician since Eisenhower has done to our government.  Is that a generalization, or just honesty?  It is honesty.  You just can't believe I am not being hyperbolic or contrarian ... in this case.

You can have your own delusions, we all do.  You can state them in public if you like.  But don't expect anyone other than an echo chamber to agree.  Otherwise we are merely stating personal preference over things neither of us controls.

Who the hell are you, or I to decide right from wrong?  I do the same, but I think I am a bit more self-skeptical (or contrarian if you will).  Anything anyone fervently believes, is probably the biggest mistake one could make.  LBJ and the Domino theory for example.
Who decides what is right and wrong?  Society, of course.  On a personal level, I have my own right and wrong.  I don't expect you to mirror that or to model those.  There is no actual right and wrong but theists have the hardest time acknowledging that. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

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Who decides what is right and wrong?  Society, of course.  On a personal level, I have my own right and wrong.  I don't expect you to mirror that or to model those.  There is no actual right and wrong but theists have the hardest time acknowledging that.

No, society decides what is legal/illegal. It is unqualified to decide right/wrong.  Yes, please go do horrible things, if there is no actual right vs wrong.  I am only saying individually and socially we are unqualified to make that decision.  And that is very theist.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

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No, society decides what is legal/illegal. It is unqualified to decide right/wrong.  Yes, please go do horrible things, if there is no actual right vs wrong.  I am only saying individually and socially we are unqualified to make that decision.  And that is very theist.
Yes, society does define what is right and wrong.  And the laws of that society reflect that.  Since there really is no right or wrong, society is the only thing that can tell us what is right and wrong.  And yes, it is true also that each individual also decides what is right and wrong for them.  Since you are a theist then your god decides what is right and wrong--since your god is a fiction,  your right and wrong as dictated by your fictional god can be whatever you say it is.  Maybe we should ask the author of Paul Bunyan what right and wrong is. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

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Yes, society does define what is right and wrong.  And the laws of that society reflect that.  Since there really is no right or wrong, society is the only thing that can tell us what is right and wrong.  And yes, it is true also that each individual also decides what is right and wrong for them.  Since you are a theist then your god decides what is right and wrong--since your god is a fiction,  your right and wrong as dictated by your fictional god can be whatever you say it is.  Maybe we should ask the author of Paul Bunyan what right and wrong is.

So Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia were OK?  Southern US chattel slavery was OK?

Human beings are arrogant beyond all measure.  Bad enough to decide legal/illegal.  I am not claiming the Bible decides right from wrong either.  I didn't even mention G-d.  If you recall, I don't consider G-d to be moral.  Just real and amoral.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

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So Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia were OK?  Southern US chattel slavery was OK?

Human beings are arrogant beyond all measure.  Bad enough to decide legal/illegal.  I am not claiming the Bible decides right from wrong either.  I didn't even mention G-d.  If you recall, I don't consider G-d to be moral.  Just real and amoral.
Both Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russian society decided what was right and what was wrong.  Does not mean I agree with either one--but that is beside the point.  Every society does that, otherwise it would not be called a society.  So, for you, if your god is amoral, then what determines right and wrong for you???
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

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Both Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russian society decided what was right and what was wrong.  Does not mean I agree with either one--but that is beside the point.  Every society does that, otherwise it would not be called a society.  So, for you, if your god is amoral, then what determines right and wrong for you???

Your relativism is something I can entertain, but not agree with.  That criminals are just another oppressed minority group, that needs to be enabled to do what they do.  And I don't mean this as a matter of skin color.  International criminals are worse than the domestic kind.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

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Your relativism is something I can entertain, but not agree with.  That criminals are just another oppressed minority group, that needs to be enabled to do what they do.  And I don't mean this as a matter of skin color.  International criminals are worse than the domestic kind.
What is it that determines what is right and wrong for you? 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

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What is it that determines what is right and wrong for you?

I have prejudices, same as anyone.  I am just not arrogant enough to label them truth or right, or to label the prejudices of my tribe as such.  I have become aware of my own arrogance, thru humiliation, which is the only door to humility.  The narrow door religions speak of.

And you know what my prejudices are, since I don't hide them.  Nor do I try to claim they are virtuous.  Mortality is like that.  Had a exhaustion/diabetic collapse this evening.  But I seem to have recovered.  Or maybe I am in the Spock-with-a-beard parallel universe ;-{>  I always liked him better that way.

I have given up trying to determine it.  It isn't blasphemy to be a demi-god, but it is to claim you are G-d.  I simply don't know.  There are things only the Father knows.  Life has shown its mystery, but not an answer to that mystery.  No arrogance on my part, I simply don't claim the certainty that atheist claim.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

"Beijing Hires Hundreds To Manage Mandatory Party Propaganda App" ... Mao's little red book morphs into Mao's little red app.  All SJW cultural revolution cadres will jump for joy ... or else!
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

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I have prejudices, same as anyone.  I am just not arrogant enough to label them truth or right, or to label the prejudices of my tribe as such.  I have become aware of my own arrogance, thru humiliation, which is the only door to humility.  The narrow door religions speak of.

And you know what my prejudices are, since I don't hide them.  Nor do I try to claim they are virtuous.  Mortality is like that.  Had a exhaustion/diabetic collapse this evening.  But I seem to have recovered.  Or maybe I am in the Spock-with-a-beard parallel universe ;-{>  I always liked him better that way.

I have given up trying to determine it.  It isn't blasphemy to be a demi-god, but it is to claim you are G-d.  I simply don't know.  There are things only the Father knows.  Life has shown its mystery, but not an answer to that mystery.  No arrogance on my part, I simply don't claim the certainty that atheist claim.
I appreciate your response.  But, as an atheist, I don't claim to have certainty.  There is no Truth or Right or Wrong.  It is all relative to what one is talking about and to what level of organization or society one is referring to--or a personal decision based upon whatever that person, at that moment, thinks is correct.  Yes, the universe is mysterious, but only because we don't have many of the answers to the questions we think are important.  We know more facts now, than in the past--the unknown stuff is only that--we don't know yet and so it is simply unknown.  There is no Father (except for those who believe in that fiction) so Father isn't really mysterious.  And I haven't given up trying to determine what is right and wrong for me.  I am curious why I think as I do.  I do not have a universal Truth, but a personal truth; no Morality, but a personal set of values--purely personal. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

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Both Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russian society decided what was right and what was wrong.  Does not mean I agree with either one--but that is beside the point.  Every society does that, otherwise it would not be called a society.  So, for you, if your god is amoral, then what determines right and wrong for you???

You are implicitly collectivist.  And I think you are totally wrong about that.  Hitler and Stalin decided, they were dictatorships.  Are you in love with dictatorships?

I don't believe in moral/immoral.  I believe in amoral (both empirically and proscriptively).  I agree with Mao, that truth comes from the barrel of a gun.

Once upon a time, our society "decided" that abortion and gay sex was both immoral and illegal.  Were you in agreement with that?  What thermometer do you have to tell you how to conform to your "society" god?  See, I could have decided to get my morality from some old book, but do you really get yours from opinion polls?  Or just the "cadre" of your particular political party?
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

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You are implicitly collectivist.  And I think you are totally wrong about that.  Hitler and Stalin decided, they were dictatorships.  Are you in love with dictatorships?

I don't believe in moral/immoral.  I believe in amoral (both empirically and proscriptively).  I agree with Mao, that truth comes from the barrel of a gun.

Once upon a time, our society "decided" that abortion and gay sex was both immoral and illegal.  Were you in agreement with that?  What thermometer do you have to tell you how to conform to your "society" god?  See, I could have decided to get my morality from some old book, but do you really get yours from opinion polls?  Or just the "cadre" of your particular political party?
This society is constantly 'creating' it's morality.  And it is reflected in the laws we chose to pass and enforce.  I live in this society and therefore am affected by what my society deems to be right and wrong.  That does not mean I adhere to all of them or any of them.  I, like all of us, develop my own set of values and right and wrongs.  And even those are not carved in stone.  You still project god into it.  There is no god (I guess you are simply too lazy to try and figure this stuff out, so you keep wanting to interject a god of some kind to give relief to your fevered mind)--not in any form or anywhere in this universe.  But I agree with you in that the universe is amoral; it is not alive, it does not feel and is not 'alive' in any sense of the word--so, it cannot care one way or another. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

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This society is constantly 'creating' it's morality.  And it is reflected in the laws we chose to pass and enforce.  I live in this society and therefore am affected by what my society deems to be right and wrong.  That does not mean I adhere to all of them or any of them.  I, like all of us, develop my own set of values and right and wrongs.  And even those are not carved in stone.  You still project god into it.  There is no god (I guess you are simply too lazy to try and figure this stuff out, so you keep wanting to interject a god of some kind to give relief to your fevered mind)--not in any form or anywhere in this universe.  But I agree with you in that the universe is amoral; it is not alive, it does not feel and is not 'alive' in any sense of the word--so, it cannot care one way or another.

I understand "legality".  I don't equate morality with legality.  It was illegal for gays to have consensual sex, even though it is moral (however contrary to some interpretations of the Bible).  But I can see you aren't relativist really, just legalist.

What if the law required you to kill your father and marry your mother, would you do that?

Is the universe alive?  Or are we sentients just at aspect of the universe which is alive.  Your individual atoms aren't alive.  The minerals in your bones (yes it is mostly hard tissue) isn't alive.  So on that basis since you are "whole" not "part" ... you aren't alive either.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 12:00:53 PM by Baruch »
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

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I understand "legality".  I don't equate morality with legality.  It was illegal for gays to have consensual sex, even though it is moral (however contrary to some interpretations of the Bible).  But I can see you aren't relativist really, just legalist.

What if the law required you to kill your father and marry your mother, would you do that?

Is the universe alive?  Or are we sentients just at aspect of the universe which is alive.  Your individual atoms aren't alive.  The minerals in your bones (yes it is mostly hard tissue) isn't alive.  So on that basis since you are "whole" not "part" ... you aren't alive either.
We are quibbling semantics.  Clearly, neither of us think there is any such thing as morality.  What I say and have been saying, is that all societies create what one can call a moral stance, which is that societies view on right and wrong.  In our society it is reflected in our laws.  I am not suggesting that a good thing or a bad thing--it just is.  Do I agree with all the dictates of this society?  You know I do not. 

Is the universe itself alive?  Define what alive is.  I don't think so.   The universe just is.  I assume I am alive (depending upon the definition) and act as tho I am.  Maybe I am not. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Is the universe itself alive?  Define what alive is.  I don't think so.   The universe just is.  I assume I am alive (depending upon the definition) and act as tho I am.  Maybe I am not. 

I think of the universe as being alive through us, since the universe engendered us, and we are wholly in and of the universe. So I don't think it's the case that the universe contains life, but that the universe is alive - but only through the things we call "alive," like ourselves. Life is emergent from the simple rules of the cosmic game, like the wetness of water emerging from the non-wetness of its molecular structure.
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 *I would not give a fig for the simplicity this side of complexity, but I would give my life for the simplicity on the other side of complexity."
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

 

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