News for crickets ... that is all I hear about this ... just crickets ...

[Baruch]

I am of the opposite. The universe is mostly dead, vastly...mostly dead. Like a carcass of an elephant frozen forever but yet in a small part of the bladder perhaps, a cell had an infection that somehow manages to survive...barely. Like the dead elephant, the universe knows nothing of our "existence" as it is dead. However, even if the universe could, it could not discern us from the squirrel, or termite, or even our planet. We are indeed this small and useless and completely ignored.....but not by design.....but because it is dead.

You atoms don't know you are alive either.  I would rather say "non-living" in that for me "dead" implies "formerly alive" which it is not.  And I see even a single human being to be incomparable.

I agree that the universe isn't a person, anymore than your atoms are.  There was a pantheist idea in Judaism 1500 years ago, Shiur Qoma, that the world was a giant body of G-d.  But that isn't the only option for pantheism.

In the same way that you or I are not simply the sum of our atoms.  The whole is greater than the parts.  I would agree with Arik, that consciousness is tied to the neural system, but isn't the same as it.

Just as a radio program can be heard thru a radio receiver, but isn't the cause of it.  The radio receiver simply causes to be heard, what was already there in another form.  The radio program not being natural random waves (static).

[aitm]

I hold that "consciousness" is nothing more than learned reactionary behavior. Like all life forms we either learn to react to individual situations or we end up not being able to and suffer whatever the results may be. As ones "society" becomes more complex we learn to react and adapt to it. Some want consciousness to be a human only thing and only from a god (that thinks a rainbow is more impressive that the Northern Lights- until one realizes the Northern Lights did not exist in made-up shit land).

Millions of years of learning how to adapt and react to each other....and outsiders, the ability to understand how and why some reactions could and would be detrimental and which ones could be beneficial. All of our actions are geared to selfishness. But this is not to say that selfishness is selfish, selfishness can easily be altruistic as one understands that helping the society not only helps oneself but in many cases advances ones standing in the society.

We may not know for sure if animals understand the concept of death, but we grant them that they do and are willing to "die" for us. Humans do understand death and show a willingness to die for strangers and even "lessor" creatures. While it is easy to suggest that this is proof that consciousness is not a selfish ideal, I hold that this leads us to the idea that "sacrificing" oneself for another is the ultimate in selfishness. Hoping that one will live beyond death by tribute and honor, they build statues for people like that. Even ones who never had a chance to be a king, or general or
even a person of general respect. No one can deny the ultimate sacrifice was honorable and noble and worthy of such respect. Consciousness is mere reactionary behavior....learned throughout life.

[Baruch]

I hold that "consciousness" is nothing more than learned reactionary behavior. Like all life forms we either learn to react to individual situations or we end up not being able to and suffer whatever the results may be. As ones "society" becomes more complex we learn to react and adapt to it. Some want consciousness to be a human only thing and only from a god (that thinks a rainbow is more impressive that the Northern Lights- until one realizes the Northern Lights did not exist in made-up shit land).

Millions of years of learning how to adapt and react to each other....and outsiders, the ability to understand how and why some reactions could and would be detrimental and which ones could be beneficial. All of our actions are geared to selfishness. But this is not to say that selfishness is selfish, selfishness can easily be altruistic as one understands that helping the society not only helps oneself but in many cases advances ones standing in the society.

We may not know for sure if animals understand the concept of death, but we grant them that they do and are willing to "die" for us. Humans do understand death and show a willingness to die for strangers and even "lessor" creatures. While it is easy to suggest that this is proof that consciousness is not a selfish ideal, I hold that this leads us to the idea that "sacrificing" oneself for another is the ultimate in selfishness. Hoping that one will live beyond death by tribute and honor, they build statues for people like that. Even ones who never had a chance to be a king, or general or
even a person of general respect. No one can deny the ultimate sacrifice was honorable and noble and worthy of such respect. Consciousness is mere reactionary behavior....learned throughout life.

That is 19th century empirical psychology (German experimental psychology aka psychophysics) with Weber, Fechner & Wundt; stimulus & response.  The first dedicated laboratory was built in 1879.

But empirical psychology was then extended to Behaviorism (1907 etc in the US (Watson) and Russia (Pavlov), where external tests (rats in a maze) were the criteria, not models of neurons.

The use of models of neurons have now been extended to software neural nets ... though their actual behavior today, isn't like a biological system as envisaged in 1958 (Rosenblatt).  Just as most algorithmic AI uses general programming rather than explicit models of the mind (Deep Blue 1998).

Cognitive Science is the successor to these early efforts, which attempts a cross-discipline approach, both objective and subjective.

Otherwise, you are describing subjective analysis of mind, not objective ;-)

[Baruch]

"Comedian Who "Came To Break The System" Wins Ukraine Presidential Election By Landslide" ... he has never been in office.  Has played President of Ukraine on TV.  So, we have a new Trump of the Steppe.  Y'all still think that the proletariat should vote?

[aitm]

That is 19th century empirical psychology (German experimental psychology aka psychophysics) with Weber, Fechner & Wundt; stimulus & response.  The first dedicated laboratory was built in 1879.

But empirical psychology was then extended to Behaviorism (1907 etc in the US (Watson) and Russia (Pavlov), where external tests (rats in a maze) were the criteria, not models of neurons.

The use of models of neurons have now been extended to software neural nets ... though their actual behavior today, isn't like a biological system as envisaged in 1958 (Rosenblatt).  Just as most algorithmic AI uses general programming rather than explicit models of the mind (Deep Blue 1998).

Cognitive Science is the successor to these early efforts, which attempts a cross-discipline approach, both objective and subjective.

Otherwise, you are describing subjective analysis of mind, not objective ;-)

I'll simply take that as a: You're right.

Thank you.

[Baruch]

I'll simply take that as a: You're right.

Thank you.

Not exactly.  You have one of the standard POV ... not the only POV.

[aitm]

Otherwise, you are describing subjective analysis of mind, not objective ;-)

The mind seems to react to subjective scenarios. To one a snake is a fearful creature to be avoided, to another a toy. Seems rather subjective to me. We don't react the same in similar situations.

[Baruch]

The mind seems to react to subjective scenarios. To one a snake is a fearful creature to be avoided, to another a toy. Seems rather subjective to me. We don't react the same in similar situations.

Exactly.  This was discussed in the Upanishads, 2800 years ago in India.  They didn't have "German" science, yah?  Man in the dark sees what he thinks is a cobra, and it is a coiled rope, or thinks he sees a coiled rope, but it is a cobra ... outcome is very different.

[Unbeliever]

This is interesting:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DnXYs9Yqmw

[aitm]

Exactly.  This was discussed in the Upanishads, 2800 years ago in India. 

What can I say? I am a man of the times.

[Baruch]

"Microsoft Discovers Huawei Driver Allowing Backdoor Hack Into Laptops" ... this is why it is hazardous to use computer/networking equipment which are made whole or in part by foreign governments.  And anything from China, has the PRC CP all over it.

[Baruch]

"Mueller Report Reveals Russia Taped Bill Clinton Having Phone Sex With Monica Lewinsky" ... this means, from then, until it did become public knowledge, the Russians could blackmail Clinton.

[Baruch]

"Global Government And Mass Surveillance Needed To Save Humanity, Expert Says" ... says some pin-head at Oxford.  The best way to save humanity is to stop subsidizing pin-heads.

[Baruch]

"Notre-Dame Scaffolding Firm Admits Workers Were Smoking, Denies Starting Fire" ... oops.  Yes, smoke around wooden beams that are 800 years old!

[Baruch]

"New York's "Green New Deal" To Phase Out Red Meat By 50%" ... a famous vegetarian will be pleased .... Adolph Hitler.

On the other hand, Jewish residents of NYC are not just "the other red meat" but are kosher to eat ;-)