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Early Christian Schisms

Started by Shiranu, July 17, 2018, 03:29:55 AM

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Cavebear

Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on August 15, 2018, 11:46:23 PM
The heresies of the early days were more interesting.

Jesus was only divine
Jesus was only man
John was the messiah, not Jesus
The various Gnostic heresies

Today all we get is Creationism.

Evidence of the existence of Jesus would be a good start to your supposition.  Proof of divinity would be good too.  Same about John (does that make you a "Johnist")?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 04:03:59 AM
Evidence of the existence of Jesus would be a good start to your supposition.  Proof of divinity would be good too.  Same about John (does that make you a "Johnist")?

Skepticism is good.  There are lots of guys in Mexico named Jesus, today.  Same with Anglos named John.  And I lowered the bar on divinity.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 04:03:59 AM
Evidence of the existence of Jesus would be a good start to your supposition.  Proof of divinity would be good too.  Same about John (does that make you a "Johnist")?
He was only referencing early "heresies" not saying he believes any of them.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Cavebear

Quote from: Unbeliever on September 08, 2018, 02:26:29 PM
He was only referencing early "heresies" not saying he believes any of them.

I know.  But I have to have some fun too.  He DID kind of invite the "Johnism" reference.  ;)
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

#19
Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 02:31:23 PM
I know.  But I have to have some fun too.  He DID kind of invite the "Johnism" reference.  ;)

Actually, Johnism is a thing.  They are called Mandeans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhP4n3SMs0w

If you aren't ignorant of Judaism etc, one will recognize this liturgical clothing with Jews on Yom Kippur (and burial customs), Muslims at Hajj and burial, Zoroastrians, early Christian baptisms.  This is all part of comparative anthropology.  Of course there have always been scoffers and the libertines.

People here are like colonialists gawking at pictures of women in the Amazon who don't wear a bra.  We are the uber-mensch.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

I thank God every day that I'm an unbeliever!
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on September 08, 2018, 02:41:10 PM
I thank God every day that I'm an unbeliever!

That way, you never have to take a bath ;-))
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Minimalist

Quote from: Baruch on August 04, 2018, 08:11:32 AM
Yeah, they used to have fun in the "good old days".  It is always a good time to kill Jews.
Quote from: Baruch on August 04, 2018, 08:11:32 AM
Yeah, they used to have fun in the "good old days".  It is always a good time to kill Jews.

https://youtu.be/aIlJ8ZCs4jY
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Baruch

So? - Dick Cheney, US President 2001 - 2009.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

"Cassius Clay and Mrs. Wallace dancing cheek to cheek..."

What a lovely image!
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on December 09, 2018, 05:28:29 PM
"Cassius Clay and Mrs. Wallace dancing cheek to cheek..."

What a lovely image!

Don't incite race war, unless you are scalping tickets, and grubstaking the concessions.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Newtonian

I was hoping this thread would document the earliest schism among Christians - between Polycarp (and the Quartodecimans) and Victor and the western churches that rejected Nisan 14 as the date of the last supper.

My religion believes as did Polycarp and the Quartodecimans that Jesus observed the last supper on Passover night, Nisan 14.

But most religions in Christendom do not.

See:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Quartodecimanism

[Note - the Passover is mentioned repeatedly in the Bible but the Greek word is mistranslated Easter in one verse in KJV.  Those of my religion have only one holy day - Nisan 14 - the Memorial of Christ's death (and the last supper - Jewish days begin and end with sunset)]

Baruch

Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 05:26:01 PM
I was hoping this thread would document the earliest schism among Christians - between Polycarp (and the Quartodecimans) and Victor and the western churches that rejected Nisan 14 as the date of the last supper.

My religion believes as did Polycarp and the Quartodecimans that Jesus observed the last supper on Passover night, Nisan 14.

But most religions in Christendom do not.

See:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Quartodecimanism

[Note - the Passover is mentioned repeatedly in the Bible but the Greek word is mistranslated Easter in one verse in KJV.  Those of my religion have only one holy day - Nisan 14 - the Memorial of Christ's death (and the last supper - Jewish days begin and end with sunset)]

Correct, by the 3rd century CE ... the Western church, in its parochialism and anti-semitism moved away from the Jewish calendar.  The Eastern church kept the Jewish calendar, though their reset of the calendar (as required by the rabbinic system) was under episcopal authority, not rabbinic.  And even the rabbinic calendar was fully systematizes in the mid 4th century CE ... so that it no longer depended on Kohens in Palestine or Babylonia.

The Arab Muslims avoided all this, by sticking to a pure Lunar calendar, while the Romans kept to a pure Solar calendar (until the Gregorian reform) borrowed from Egypt, as Julius Caesar was influenced by Cleopatra ;-)

The Jewish/Muslim system of time also counts midnight as the start of the next day.  So Jewish Sabbath starts at sundown Friday, and goes until sundown Saturday.  Nobody used midnight as the start of the day, until modern times.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

aitm

Schism....always cordial till they disagree, then the swords come out and whoever kills the most gets the win. Gotta love religion.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Baruch

Quote from: aitm on March 21, 2020, 06:07:21 PM
Schism....always cordial till they disagree, then the swords come out and whoever kills the most gets the win. Gotta love religion.

So unlike politics.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.