Author Topic: The ONE THING?  (Read 6457 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2018, 10:58:34 AM »
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No, the real issue is whether God exists.  It's the defining condition of atheism.  It's also the defining condition in god based religions.  Does this God you worship exist?  If Christianity and Islam are correct, it's the most defining condition of everyone's lives that ever lived, and will determine the eternity of all our souls.  If God doesn't exist, no further investigation accomplishes anything.  You cannot trivialize existence with an idiosyncratic definition that better suits the objective of avoiding the question.  It's the first condition that must be addressed for the rest of the doctrine to be meaningful.

No, the real issue is ... does existence make any sense at all?  Or are all metaphysical words just gibberish?

Yes, the Greek philosophical god of Aristotle/Plato, added to Christian theology ... made a complete mess ... not just of Christianity, but Judaism and Islam also.  We want an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient transcendency now!  That seems a reductio absurdum (just as you say).  Human beings are irrational.  Reality isn't real (it is just crap in your head).
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2018, 11:00:28 AM »
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I have nothing against church goers or people practicing their religion in their own private places of worship or homes. Infact I've meet some nice people who go to church, even dated a guy once who was a benedictine monk.

Its when peoples faiths come out and interfere with the rest of the world that it becomes an issue.

As does their ideology interfering with other people's lives.  We want liberty ... or better yet ... freedom (aka anarchism).

Would an ideological tyranny by atheists (see Stalin) be OK with you?  I don't think so.  The problem isn't theism/atheism, that is a false dichotomy, what is at issue is tyranny.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2018, 11:02:05 AM »
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If WE look at this claim there is also the factors to conclude that Moby Dick was not compiled 4 000 years ago and copied over and over until 165 BC, left in a cave, whilst other copies continued to be copied until 1948 AD when the one from 165 BC was discovered and compared with what we had to find it is virtually exactly the same.
Moby Dick does not have in its covers more than 3000 topographical descriptions, more than 500 towns and cities mentioned that was no to be found in 1798 when Napoleon did his route, in the areas where the Biblical history was recorded 4 000 to 2 000 years ago; only to be discovered and confirmed as correct after another 200 years of criticism by Bible critics, who were only to be proven in error.
If one investigates science and assume the Bible should be correct in it's description of the origins of the Universe, else the Author of the Bible did not know how HE-DID-IT, it is not an error as most accusers against the God of the Bible would like it to be.
On the contrary, this will be one of my evidences I will enter into judgement to see if my theory holds water.

Anyhow, I agree that any book can be made to become a "holy book", only when superficially glancing one's eyes over the cover, but to do an in depth study is a different horse to saddle.

I have a copy of the Egyptian Book Of the Dead ... clearly a predecessor to the Bible, especially Christianity (which is more Egyptian/Syrian than Jewish).  As the Pyramid Texts are prior to the Book Of The Dead.  Based on old writings ... the cave painting in France are ... true scripture!

For MouseTrap:

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A more realistic version of Moby Dick ...

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Still full of Biblical correlations ...

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Another Bible vs Sea story ... tohu wa-bohu from first chapter of Genesis.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 11:41:19 AM by Baruch »
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2018, 01:07:05 PM »
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I will leave this thread tomorrow and will continue on another where I will show the reasons why I became a Bible believing Christian.
But in the meantime I was pondering upon the answers some of you would receive from Christians.

I'm sure we haven't heard any of these answers a million times...

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They will say the following.

This means that because you found a dislike in people of religion, you ascribe the same attributes to their God. (because my brother is in jail, I am also a convict. :surprise:

The problem is that Christians claim to be transformed, born again, new creatures, better than they were before. So they should be better than the general population. Yet we find that the opposite is true. Churches are filled with the most judgmental, hypocritical assholes around. So yes, that is an issue with your faith. But no, I do not consider the God of the Bible to be an asshole because his believers are assholes. I consider him to be an asshole on his own merits.

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This is an assumption that God had no right to decimate 7 nations who practiced child sacrifice and sex worship and He never warned them beforehand. Taken superficially, these Biblical descriptions are indeed a flaw in the character of God, but did you ever looked at what the narratives explain what the reasons was to destroy these nations? Do you know that this same God also prohibited war on neighboring nations and only acted when Israel was threatened by tyrants?

Of course you're going to cherrypick the least horrible examples you can find. God commanded the Hebrews to attack and kill nations that had made no threats towards them. God ordered men, women, children, and even livestock to be killed, except when he allowed the women to be taken as "wives" and the others as slaves. Hell, when God sent Moses to demand the Hebrews be released by the Pharaoh, God hardened the Pharaoh's heart just so he could display his power by poisoning their water, killing their livestock, and killing children, among other things. The God of the Bible is an inhumane monster, little different from the Greek gods.

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God never created mankind to die. He created Adam and Eve as immortals who was without sin, and Man changed his physical existence when they sinned against the instruction given by God. The reason why we grow sick, age and die, is because of our material existence we changed into after our fall.

Who was it who planted a tree with cursed fruit right in the middle of the garden meant as the only source of food for people with no concept of right and wrong? Who was it who decided that the only solution to those people falling for the trap of his own creation was to curse the ENTIRE EARTH, along with all of their descendants? Who was it who decided that allowing those two to continue with the plan of populating the earth was a good idea rather than making them infertile and starting over again fresh? No, God does not get to avoid responsibility for creating a world filled with misery, and especially not be passing that blame onto us. A teenager masturbating the shower has no relevance to a blue footed booby mother allowing one of its young to starve to death so it can focus all of its resources on its other chick. God's design, God's responsibility.

As a side note, read the story of the Fall and find me the place where God says anything about sin. It's not there. The reason God gives for kicking Adam and Eve out of Eden is that he didn't want them to have both immortality and knowledge. They could only be allowed to have one or the other. He didn't want Adam and Eve to become like gods, as the serpent said they would.

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I dont want to believe in a God that is physical too. I will however accept that God will interact with His creation, and will even visit humans on Earth. There are many such references in the Bible too.



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Well, the one in the Bible appeared to Adam, Henoch, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Samuel, David etc. From further narratives this God even sent His "Word" to Earth to be born as a man so He could live among us.

Yes. God was very active in Biblical days. Always liked showing off, performing miracles in front of doubters before killing them (defeating the purpose of proving himself in the first place), appearing as burning bushes, a pillar of fire, even human form. Yet in the age where virtually everyone has a phone with a camera on it, there's no sign of God anywhere. I wonder why that is. It's probably for the same reason that aliens only appear in rural areas where few people can see them. (Because it's all bullshit.)

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When we look at Science and Biology, one can see the work of God as he created everything.

Evolution is an erroneous theory, and the age of the Universe is not evidence that there is no Creator. It actually shows the immense creation done by a Creator.

I'm lumping these two together because they're essentially the same point. First of all, biology is a science, so I don't know why you're listing them together like they're separate fields. Second, several sciences hinge on evolution, including medicine and psychology. For instance, do you know why people get vaccinations every year? It's because micro-organisms evolve, and what works as a defense against one strain doesn't work against another. When vaccinations make the defenses of one strain ineffective, another strain takes its place and takes dominance. That's how evolution works; organisms responding to environmental pressures.

Also, the age of the universe does put a huge cog in a Biblical literalist's theology. The two creation stories in Genesis do not match reality. They're much, much too short and all in the wrong order. Not to mention the lack of death meaning that all the dinosaurs would have to have lived in recent history, which is absolutely laughable.
 
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And too many assumptions, once you reconcile these contradictions, the answers are also proof of bias towards the Bible. Anyone can use tactical thought to twist the intended message, but when investigating shows that the so called contradiction is only due to the accuser to produce a contradiction, and not factual, be prepared to be identified as a deceiver.

If I'm identified as a "deceiver," it's to dismiss anything I have to say in an effort to protect one's unjustifiable beliefs. There are many, many examples of contradictions in the Bible that cannot be reconciled. Oh, I've seen many apologists twist verses to mean things they clearly don't to try fix them, but we can see right through their bullshit.

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This is an assumption of someone in the room looking for a droppings as evidence of a mouse, whilst he don't see the elephant.

You're missing the point again. The same arguments used as "evidence"* for the Christian God can and have been used as evidence for every other god. Look up a video on YouTube of just any random Muslim apologist, and I guarantee you at least 90% of the arguments they make will sound very familiar to you. I have no more reason to believe in the Christian God than to believe in any other god. And yes, that is a big problem for you if you want to convince people your religion is true. Not only do you have to prove that a god exists, you have to prove that YOUR god exists.

*Note, evidence and arguments are NOT the same things.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 02:40:35 PM by Blackleaf »
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Offline Hydra009

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2018, 01:16:38 PM »
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Anyhow, I thought the Origins of our Universe might be a nice place to start, due to the claim that the Bible is incorrect in its description on how the Earth was made.
Triangle block meets square hole.  Sure, it might be made to fit, but that's unrelated to whether it belongs there in the first place.

Offline Hydra009

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2018, 01:30:54 PM »
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Evolution is an erroneous theory
I really hope you're joking about that.  Attacking a theory so firmly supported to boost what I can most charitably call conjecture about the nature of the universe is a fool's errand.  It also pretty much guarantees you'll be forever regarded as both a science-denying fool and a credulous religious bumpkin by both atheists and a sizable chunk of Christians as well.

Even Augustine recognized the folly of this:

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn."

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2018, 01:37:21 PM »
A quick interjection here, Mousetrap.  You do not have a 'theory' but a hypothesis.  A theory has already been proven to be true.  Yes, one can, with proper data and testing, disprove a theory--but the new theory is still a proven theory.  A hypothesis is a statement that has not been test yet.  There has not been a single theory that god exists yet. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2018, 02:14:54 PM »
Believing in God is not that big of a deal anyway, since "the devils believe, and tremble." It isn't just belief in God that is required for "salvation," but total submission to the will of God. But how can anyone even know what the will of God is unless God reveals it? If he wanted to communicate with his human creations, would he just write stuff in a book that can be changed, mistranslated, or misunderstood? It seems to me there would be a better way, especially for an omnipotent, omnipresent God. Anyone who reads the Bible without the rose-colored glasses of faith can see in it way too many flaws for it to be the word of any God.
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"Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is a child,"
Ecclesiastes 10:16
Or: Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is batshit crazy.

Offline Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2018, 02:29:05 PM »
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Believing in God is not that big of a deal anyway, since "the devils believe, and tremble." It isn't just belief in God that is required for "salvation," but total submission to the will of God. But how can anyone even know what the will of God is unless God reveals it? If he wanted to communicate with his human creations, would he just write stuff in a book that can be changed, mistranslated, or misunderstood? It seems to me there would be a better way, especially for an omnipotent, omnipresent God. Anyone who reads the Bible without the rose-colored glasses of faith can see in it way too many flaws for it to be the word of any God.

But don't mess with Athena or Poseidon in the Odyssey ;-)
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Online trdsf

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2018, 03:44:52 PM »
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Lets do it.
1. dislike the Church or the people in the Church.
2. dont like a god who use war and killed Canaanites.
3. dislike a god that allows suffering, pain, disease and death,
4. can not believe in any god that is not physically provable,
5. can not believe in a god that hides himself.
6. science and biology dont allow a Creator.
7. evolution and the age of the Universe.
8. there is too many contradictions in the Bible.
9. See no evidence for the existence of a or multiple deities.

Thanks Obvious
I would say that the only one of these that's of any relevance is the last: the total and complete lack of definitive, incontrovertible, accessible and objective evidence.

I would argue points 1, 2 and 8 because I came into atheism out of being Wiccan, not Christian, and atheism is not the lack of belief in the Judeo-Christo-Islamic god, but in any god.  And I assure you that I have no more belief in Krishna or Ahura Mazdaβ€”or for that matter Innana or Cernunnosβ€”than I do in YHWH/Jehovah/Allah.  Christianity is not special, it's just one more mythology out of thousands, and the Bible has no more meaning than any other so-called "holy" book.

Point 3 is not a matter of evidence, and certainly there are many Christians (and other believers) who would justify the existence of suffering et al. as being only "part of some greater plan".  The closest this gets to any usefulness is that one cannot posit both an all-merciful or all-just deity which does not take action against atrocities done in its name.

Point 4 is more or less subsumed in point 9, although point 9 is better phrased.  Point 5 is similar, but self-contradictory in that some level of belief that there is a god is assumed in there being one that 'hides' itself.

Points 6 and 7 are non sequitursβ€”science (of which biology is one, so it doesn't need to be listed separately) only talks about what is either demonstrable, or at least in accord with available observations, and both evolution and the age of the universe are simple observations that have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not they were "divinely" instigated or guided.

Atheism really is as simple as "The evidence is not sufficient or non-existent."
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Offline aitm

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2018, 09:45:10 PM »
yep.....this one is one slippery....er......nah.....just another typical nu.....xian.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline aitm

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2018, 09:47:30 PM »
When one call the evolution an "erroneous theory" it's time to simply walk out the room and close the door behind you...there is no conversation with these. It's like talking to a mousetrap....it's just wood a little paint and a cheap spring.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2018, 10:03:45 PM »
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When one call the evolution an "erroneous theory" it's time to simply walk out the room and close the door behind you...there is no conversation with these. It's like talking to a mousetrap....it's just wood a little paint and a cheap spring.
...and the second mouse gets the cheese.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2018, 04:58:35 AM »
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The problem is that Christians claim to be transformed, born again, new creatures, better than they were before. So they should be better than the general population. Yet we find that the opposite is true. Churches are filled with the most judgmental, hypocritical assholes around. So yes, that is an issue with your faith. But no, I do not consider the God of the Bible to be an asshole because his believers are assholes. I consider him to be an asshole on his own merits.

Does this means God does not exist?
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2018, 05:01:06 AM »
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Of course you're going to cherrypick the least horrible examples you can find. God commanded the Hebrews to attack and kill nations that had made no threats towards them. God ordered men, women, children, and even livestock to be killed, except when he allowed the women to be taken as "wives" and the others as slaves. Hell, when God sent Moses to demand the Hebrews be released by the Pharaoh, God hardened the Pharaoh's heart just so he could display his power by poisoning their water, killing their livestock, and killing children, among other things. The God of the Bible is an inhumane monster, little different from the Greek gods.

Not at all, I agree with the descriptions from the Bible. Why would I cherrypick.
Why your bias even before I said anything?
Do you hear yourself?
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

 

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