Author Topic: The ONE THING?  (Read 2568 times)

Offline SGOS

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2018, 10:48:12 PM »
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So really, I guess the first time I questioned god being real, was when I stopped believing in make believe characters.
I could have written that.  I had the same experience, almost exactly the way you described.  After I was told by the older kids there was no Santa Claus, I went to my mother for confirmation.  She admitted the thing was a fantasy, so I asked about the Easter Bunny, and the Good Fairy, and they were fake too.  Then I asked if God was a fake.  My mother paused to think, and said, "No God is real."

But the cat was now out of the bag.  My parents were liars, and their teachings about the implausible sounding things of life could no longer be trusted.  If they could lie about one thing, or in their favor, just be wrong, then they could lie or be wrong about anything.  Nothing had to be true on the word of any of the ultimately reliable sources in my life any more.  It was up to me to figure things out as best I could.  And so began my quest in life to find the proof of the one remaining implausible that the authorities still maintained was true.  I had to know if God was real on my own.  In the end, many many years later, I had to concede that the knowledge was not possible.  There was no more evidence for God than there is for Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.  My beliefs in all things sounding like fake nonsense all went up in smoke at the same time.

Theists will laugh, "Are you kidding?  Comparing God to Santa and the Easter Bunny?  Why they're not even in the same ball park!"

Unfortunately, they are in exactly the same ball park; Implausibles without evidence, with the only difference being that the authorities admit there is no Easter Bunny, while they adamantly adhere to the existence of God, but for no particular reason other than they just do.  That's all; They just do, without anything substantial to back it up other than a book that reads very much like the Iliad and the Odyssey.  The evidence, as elaborate and well funded as it is with billions of dollars worth of props, never exceeds being simply weak.  We are talking about God, the greatest being ever conjured up in the imagination of mankind.  For evidence if he's all that great, does so many things, and is such a big part of our lives, then they've got to come up with something better than, "Because it is so."
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 11:04:03 PM by SGOS »

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2018, 03:10:58 AM »
Dear all,
I thank you for your honesty and openness in your points of view.
I do however see there are some Atheists that are very suspicious of my inquiry and might perceive me as someone that wants to argue the existence of God.
Please believe me if I say I do not have any hidden agenda.
As I explained else ware, I also grew up in a Calvinistic childhood, I also rebelled, I then questioned, I went through years of investigating religions, I called myself an agnostic, and finally after studying the Bible without any bias, I came to the conclusion that there is a God, just not the one I was forced to believe in as an ignorant young man.
I also promise that I will not even attempt to get anyone of you to become a believer in anything.
This is not why I am here at all.

I love your answers, even though I might not agree with them at all.

But let me explain that I underwent two things in my life.
One was when I simply "came to the realization that there can not be a Creator", and the second when I found that what was written in the Bible was not just a Myth, but reality.

Now, I dont want you guys to be suspicious of what I just wrote. Please step back and look at what I will do in future.

I will post some facts (or what I call facts) on this thread that I find to be contrary to what Bible criticizers show as contradictions, and will ask you to criticize it if you wont mind.

This is the reason.
I want to see if you can deny what I learned to prove that the Creator does not exist.
Not to make you a Christian or a believer in Father Christmas, or the Easter bunny, (stuff I also do not believe in.  By the way and I used to be offended when people used this analogy as an insult to what I could disprove and prove. A god that is equal to these fables is definitely not the one I believe in either)

as a summary I found as a reason why Atheists are Atheists is that they:
1. dislike the Church or the people in the Church.
2. dont like a god who use war and killed Canaanites.
3. dislike a god that allows suffering, pain, disease and death,
4. can not believe in any god that is not physically provable,
5. can not believe in a god that hides himself.
6. science and biology dont allow a Creator.
7. evolution and the age of the Universe.
8. there is too many contradictions in the Bible.

Now, my open agenda is to test my observation and knowledge.
Well, I want to use my information against Atheists in future when I speak to them.

Therefore, I do not want to troll, but will place a post which I believe is evidence of the existence of the Creator, so you can critique the topic.
If it is not watertight, you will be able to sink it.

I do believe that you guys are adult in conversation, and perhaps one or 2 people might be unmannerly, but for the greater experience, I did not find such attitude among the members so far.
Thanks for the posts up to now.


Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Online Mr.Obvious

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2018, 04:10:29 AM »
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as a summary I found as a reason why Atheists are Atheists is that they:
1. dislike the Church or the people in the Church.
2. dont like a god who use war and killed Canaanites.
3. dislike a god that allows suffering, pain, disease and death,


I don't know about others, but my liking or disliking of something doesn't factor into me thinking it exists or not.
I don't see how this could be why an atheist is an atheist. That almost seems to imply that one wilfully deludes oneself out of a rebellion to a god one knows to exist. Meaning that the 'atheist' wouldn't be an actual atheist, if you think about it.  At best, I think, one could say these feelings are coincidental.

Quote

4. can not believe in any god that is not physically provable,

Truth be told, I don't know if I could believe in a god that is physically provable. By that I mean; how could one ever 'measure' god? Apparently he is interwoven fully into his creation, no? He is onmipresent, meaning he is everywhere. WE can measure things because they are not everywhere. (He is also omnipotent, meaning that even if we could distinguish his energy from everything else, how could we measure something limitless?) Besides, a god that is limited to science is a god that is limited to the physical, natural world. That kind of god would not be supernatural; it depends on how you use the words, of course, but it could imply that your god is not the supernatural being some claim it is.

Quote
5. can not believe in a god that hides himself.

It is strange. I could just about understand that there is a reasoning going on in his mind that is above my own that makes this a good call, but i doubt that would be the case.
In any case; okay. If there were a god; perhaps he would have a reason to not make this clear.
Doesn't change the much more important fact; there is no evidence to believe that he is there to begin with.

Quote
6. science and biology dont allow a Creator.

Don't have need of a creator.

Quote
7. evolution and the age of the Universe.

Understanding evolution hcan help you look at the universe and everything in a new light. It did for me. But I wouldn't say it disproves god.
Nor the wastefulness of the age of the universe, if we were the meant end-product. It puts things in perspective, but it's not a reason why one  becomes an atheist.

Quote
8. there is too many contradictions in the Bible.
Even without contradictions, the bible wouldn't be proof of a deity's existance.
So this is irrelevant, apart from discussions in which someone claims the bible shows christianity to be true.

If I were you, Mousetrap, I'd concider adding 9. , and concider dropping the rest.
9. See no evidence for the existence of a or multiple deities.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2018, 07:55:07 AM »
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I would like to know:
What was the ONE THING that made you decide that there is no God who created everything?
If it was a collection of issues that build up to your decision, don't give it all to me, tell me what was the last straw that broke the camels' back.

I wasn't raised in a religious household, so I never considered any of the multitude of religions to be more than humans making shit up.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2018, 08:41:49 AM »
Quote from: Mr. Obvious
If I were you, Mousetrap, I'd concider adding 9. , and concider dropping the rest.
9. See no evidence for the existence of a or multiple deities.

Lets do it.
1. dislike the Church or the people in the Church.
2. dont like a god who use war and killed Canaanites.
3. dislike a god that allows suffering, pain, disease and death,
4. can not believe in any god that is not physically provable,
5. can not believe in a god that hides himself.
6. science and biology dont allow a Creator.
7. evolution and the age of the Universe.
8. there is too many contradictions in the Bible.
9. See no evidence for the existence of a or multiple deities.

Thanks Obvious
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Offline Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2018, 08:47:21 AM »
So Mousetrap is a Bible thumper ... and of the KJV etc versions?  OK.

As the variant I need to add my data to his research ...

1. The Bible is literature ... like all human writings and thinkings, isn't literally true or inerrant, but is metaphorically true and fallible
2. Metaphorically true means ... the writers, and the interested readers, find existential validation in their writings/readings
3. So in that same sense, Moby Dick is true.  It was based on a true story, the sinking whale ship Essex.  Herman Melville interviewed one of the survivors.
4. Yes, you can base a complete theology on Moby Dick .. google it.

So as to existence ... the books exist, the people who write and read them exist ... but Captain Ahab is drama, same as Oedipus.  People have been enjoying drama ... because it is elliptically meaningful in their lives, since before Greek drama was invented in ancient Athens.

So the question of "existence" like any metaphysical term ... is a loaded question.  The real issue is ... is the metaphysical question pointed at you or at someone else.  That is why people here are disturbed by trolling.  Every group wants confirmation bias.
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2018, 08:54:31 AM »
Is the Bible true?  Well we have a whole thread, taken from academic sources, that shows that people can't even define what "truth" is (in formal logic).  We have many synonyms for "truth", in logic this is "tautology" but that only means something that is true via definition.  And that is why we don't know what is real and what isn't  Human beings aren't set up to determine any of that, not even right from wrong.

We are free to have any ideas we want, we have many of them, and we are inconsistent with ourselves and each other.  We are not Vulcans.  As a consequence we have potentially unlimited redefinitions of every word ... one for each person, and at each point in time.  In Zen, they know that "truth" can't be found in words ... that scripture can be torn up or burned or Buddha statues burned for heat.

The Bible has powerful stories, that many people find personally meaningful.  That is Jordan Peterson's point, for Western cultural folks.  The nihilists among us of course, don't like that.  They find no common meaning with fellow humans (they are psychopathic).  Some find no stable personal meaning (they are psychotic).  You can't base analysis on the delusions of aberrant people, or can you?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 08:59:24 AM by Baruch »
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2018, 08:57:27 AM »
What do I mean ... I am a heretic?  Because I have recognized that the Bible and other scriptures are as I have described above.  Also I have recognized the monotheism is untenable.  In ancient society superior individuals were designated to be demi-gods.  Augustus Caesar for example.  As a more democratic person, I have to agree that while Augustus Caesar was a demi-god, then so is every other human.  All living things are demi-gods, but not on the same metaphysical plane ... I have to concede that much to the ancient Egyptians.  Monotheism was started by the mad Pharaoh Akhenaton ...
שלום

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2018, 09:28:50 AM »
I will leave this thread tomorrow and will continue on another where I will show the reasons why I became a Bible believing Christian.
But in the meantime I was pondering upon the answers some of you would receive from Christians.

They will say the following.
Quote from: List #1
dislike the Church or the people in the Church.
This means that because you found a dislike in people of religion, you ascribe the same attributes to their God. (because my brother is in jail, I am also a convict. :surprise:
Quote from: List #2
don't like a god who use war and killed Canaanites.
This is an assumption that God had no right to decimate 7 nations who practiced child sacrifice and sex worship and He never warned them beforehand. Taken superficially, these Biblical descriptions are indeed a flaw in the character of God, but did you ever looked at what the narratives explain what the reasons was to destroy these nations? Do you know that this same God also prohibited war on neighboring nations and only acted when Israel was threatened by tyrants?
Quote from: List #3
dislike a god that allows suffering, pain, disease and death,
God never created mankind to die. He created Adam and Eve as immortals who was without sin, and Man changed his physical existence when they sinned against the instruction given by God. The reason why we grow sick, age and die, is because of our material existence we changed into after our fall.
Quote from: List #4
can not believe in any god that is not physically provable,
I dont want to believe in a God that is physical too. I will however accept that God will interact with His creation, and will even visit humans on Earth. There are many such references in the Bible too.
Quote from: List #5
can not believe in a god that hides himself.
Well, the one in the Bible appeared to Adam, Henoch, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Samuel, David etc. From further narratives this God even sent His "Word" to Earth to be born as a man so He could live among us.
Quote from: List #6
science and biology dont allow a Creator.
When we look at Science and Biology, one can see the work of God as he created everything.
Quote from: List #7
evolution and the age of the Universe.
Evolution is an erroneous theory, and the age of the Universe is not evidence that there is no Creator. It actually shows the immense creation done by a Creator.
Quote from: List #8
there is too many contradictions in the Bible.
And too many assumptions, once you reconcile these contradictions, the answers are also proof of bias towards the Bible. Anyone can use tactical thought to twist the intended message, but when investigating shows that the so called contradiction is only due to the accuser to produce a contradiction, and not factual, be prepared to be identified as a deceiver.
Quote from: List #9
See no evidence for the existence of a or multiple deities.
This is an assumption of someone in the room looking for a droppings as evidence of a mouse, whilst he don't see the elephant.

Now, I will only use 2 of the above in future, take note, these answers are not solid support to prove the existence of a divine presence in our universe, and I can understand why an Atheist will reject the above reasoning.
Just thought I would show you what arguments I will not use when I place my observations on the floor.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Offline SGOS

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2018, 09:31:11 AM »
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So the question of "existence" like any metaphysical term ... is a loaded question.  The real issue is ... is the metaphysical question pointed at you or at someone else.
No, the real issue is whether God exists.  It's the defining condition of atheism.  It's also the defining condition in god based religions.  Does this God you worship exist?  If Christianity and Islam are correct, it's the most defining condition of everyone's lives that ever lived, and will determine the eternity of all our souls.  If God doesn't exist, no further investigation accomplishes anything.  You cannot trivialize existence with an idiosyncratic definition that better suits the objective of avoiding the question.  It's the first condition that must be addressed for the rest of the doctrine to be meaningful.

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2018, 09:40:58 AM »
Mousetrap, I never believed in any god/gods.  I do remember wanting to believe in your god as a child so I could fit it.  I wanted to believe with all the fiber of my being; I even went so far as to show all the outward trappings of believing hoping that I could talk myself into it and fit in that way.  It never worked--as a child or adult. 

I don't hate religion nor the masses that practice it. I hate the hierarchy that grows up in every organized religion.  In each and every case, it turns evil and dupes and preys upon those who support it.  Yes, even your church's hierarchy is evil and without morals or ethics.

As has been stated--the heart of the matter (and what really is the only thing that matters) is if your god is an actual fact.  If so, please produce some facts to demonstrated that your god does exist. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2018, 09:51:04 AM »
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Is the Bible true?  Well we have a whole thread, taken from academic sources, that shows that people can't even define what "truth" is (in formal logic). ...
If WE look at this claim there is also the factors to conclude that Moby Dick was not compiled 4 000 years ago and copied over and over until 165 BC, left in a cave, whilst other copies continued to be copied until 1948 AD when the one from 165 BC was discovered and compared with what we had to find it is virtually exactly the same.
Moby Dick does not have in its covers more than 3000 topographical descriptions, more than 500 towns and cities mentioned that was no to be found in 1798 when Napoleon did his route, in the areas where the Biblical history was recorded 4 000 to 2 000 years ago; only to be discovered and confirmed as correct after another 200 years of criticism by Bible critics, who were only to be proven in error.
If one investigates science and assume the Bible should be correct in it's description of the origins of the Universe, else the Author of the Bible did not know how HE-DID-IT, it is not an error as most accusers against the God of the Bible would like it to be.
On the contrary, this will be one of my evidences I will enter into judgement to see if my theory holds water.

Anyhow, I agree that any book can be made to become a "holy book", only when superficially glancing one's eyes over the cover, but to do an in depth study is a different horse to saddle.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2018, 10:00:49 AM »
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As has been stated--the heart of the matter (and what really is the only thing that matters) is if your god is an actual fact.  If so, please produce some facts to demonstrated that your god does exist.

This is what I intend to do.
But keep in mind, that whatever I say should not be taken as any reason to accept a divinity.
It will only be a reason to investigate what I claim, and anyone who simply accepts anything someone else produces, be it the ultimate scientific fact, it is our duty to scrutinize everything that is said.
Anyhow, I thought the Origins of our Universe might be a nice place to start, due to the claim that the Bible is incorrect in its description on how the Earth was made.
And thank you all for your intellectual courtesy when you post something on this thread.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Online Mr.Obvious

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2018, 10:10:11 AM »
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I will leave this thread tomorrow and will continue on another where I will show the reasons why I became a Bible believing Christian.
But in the meantime I was pondering upon the answers some of you would receive from Christians.

They will say the following.This means that because you found a dislike in people of religion, you ascribe the same attributes to their God. (because my brother is in jail, I am also a convict. :surprise:This is an assumption that God had no right to decimate 7 nations who practiced child sacrifice and sex worship and He never warned them beforehand. Taken superficially, these Biblical descriptions are indeed a flaw in the character of God, but did you ever looked at what the narratives explain what the reasons was to destroy these nations? Do you know that this same God also prohibited war on neighboring nations and only acted when Israel was threatened by tyrants?God never created mankind to die. He created Adam and Eve as immortals who was without sin, and Man changed his physical existence when they sinned against the instruction given by God. The reason why we grow sick, age and die, is because of our material existence we changed into after our fall. I dont want to believe in a God that is physical too. I will however accept that God will interact with His creation, and will even visit humans on Earth. There are many such references in the Bible too.Well, the one in the Bible appeared to Adam, Henoch, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Samuel, David etc. From further narratives this God even sent His "Word" to Earth to be born as a man so He could live among us.When we look at Science and Biology, one can see the work of God as he created everything.Evolution is an erroneous theory, and the age of the Universe is not evidence that there is no Creator. It actually shows the immense creation done by a Creator. And too many assumptions, once you reconcile these contradictions, the answers are also proof of bias towards the Bible. Anyone can use tactical thought to twist the intended message, but when investigating shows that the so called contradiction is only due to the accuser to produce a contradiction, and not factual, be prepared to be identified as a deceiver.This is an assumption of someone in the room looking for a droppings as evidence of a mouse, whilst he don't see the elephant.

Now, I will only use 2 of the above in future, take note, these answers are not solid support to prove the existence of a divine presence in our universe, and I can understand why an Atheist will reject the above reasoning.
Just thought I would show you what arguments I will not use when I place my observations on the floor.

MT, if you have a point, feel free to get around to it. Feel free to do it in your own time. But honestly, and without judgement, the above posts seem to be irrelevant to what it is you wish to achieve here.
I will say that to me, all it seems you have done so far is give some atheist-strawmen and then proceeded to answer them with theist-strawmen.
Oh, and my addition, of which I am happy you included, but from which the supplied answer indeed does not satisfy me.

Anyway, what I guess I'm saying is:
If you truly wish to have a conversation, we'd be happy to do half of the work. You don't need to do everything.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.

Offline Munch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2018, 10:46:25 AM »
I have nothing against church goers or people practicing their religion in their own private places of worship or homes. Infact I've meet some nice people who go to church, even dated a guy once who was a benedictine monk.

Its when peoples faiths come out and interfere with the rest of the world that it becomes an issue.

 

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