Author Topic: The ONE THING?  (Read 9596 times)

Online Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #150 on: August 01, 2018, 06:52:10 AM »
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Baruch, scribe of Jeremiah,
Please explain to me what is a "Free thinking Theist"?

Took you a long time to ask that obvious question ;-) One has to have a personal and social relationship with divinity (however you define that).  Scripture, religion don't matter as authorities for me.  You are bound to scripture for example.  So you can't "completely" think outside the box you put yourself into.  You are circumscribed by dead authority, not living free.  Which is OK, you can do what you want.  I need more freedom than that.  The atheists here take science or nature as their authority.  I consider my own experience to be my authority, for me.  Not for anyone else.

In my case I am humanist, I value humans in general, highest of all.  Not that they are easy to be, live with, or work with.  As a human, I view divinity in personalist terms.  I consider the personal to be more central than the impersonal.  So for these matters, I don't find science useful at all.  You seem to think, as the atheists here, that science/nature  supports your position.  I value science or nature on their own terms, but not as a Swiss Army knife.

So what is divinity?  Doesn't matter in terms of objective reality.  As a personalist, humanist, I see divinity in more individual terms.  It is subjective on several levels.  I can't see things as a non-human!  I can't see things from G-d's eye (objectivity).  Usually in reading scripture, the POV of the reader is the omniscient narrator.  That is not the POV of the writer.  Exegesis is hard, because we are always tempted to read in what we want to find.  You or the atheists here differ on how you "read in".  Atheists see things from their inhuman, materialist, objective POV.

So what can I conclude, situationally, today?  That seeing the Bible from the POV of ancient contemporaries, both Jewish and non-Jewish, gives you better literary criticism.  Most of the atheists here apply incompetent and irrelevant literary criticism (because of how the Bible is used politically).  They would burn the Bible, but not Harry Potter, not because they are pagans, but because of their politics.  They are topical fascists that way.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 06:54:38 AM by Baruch »
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Online Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #151 on: August 01, 2018, 06:53:32 AM »
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I eagerly await Baruch's reply, but I have a thought about the term.  "One who struggles to believe in a deity, but that belief conflicts with one's internal logical thoughts".

Go back to Vulcan, Spock is calling.  You are a computer (in your POV), a machine.  Beware the cleaning lady, she might unplug you ;-)
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Offline Cavebear

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #152 on: August 01, 2018, 07:07:52 AM »
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Took you a long time to ask that obvious question ;-) One has to have a personal and social relationship with divinity (however you define that).  Scripture, religion don't matter as authorities for me.  You are bound to scripture for example.  So you can't "completely" think outside the box you put yourself into.  You are circumscribed by dead authority, not living free.  Which is OK, you can do what you want.  I need more freedom than that.  The atheists here take science or nature as their authority.  I consider my own experience to be my authority, for me.  Not for anyone else.

In my case I am humanist, I value humans in general, highest of all.  Not that they are easy to be, live with, or work with.  As a human, I view divinity in personalist terms.  I consider the personal to be more central than the impersonal.  So for these matters, I don't find science useful at all.  You seem to think, as the atheists here, that science/nature  supports your position.  I value science or nature on their own terms, but not as a Swiss Army knife.

So what is divinity?  Doesn't matter in terms of objective reality.  As a personalist, humanist, I see divinity in more individual terms.  It is subjective on several levels.  I can't see things as a non-human!  I can't see things from G-d's eye (objectivity).  Usually in reading scripture, the POV of the reader is the omniscient narrator.  That is not the POV of the writer.  Exegesis is hard, because we are always tempted to read in what we want to find.  You or the atheists here differ on how you "read in".  Atheists see things from their inhuman, materialist, objective POV.

So what can I conclude, situationally, today?  That seeing the Bible from the POV of ancient contemporaries, both Jewish and non-Jewish, gives you better literary criticism.  Most of the atheists here apply incompetent and irrelevant literary criticism (because of how the Bible is used politically).  They would burn the Bible, but not Harry Potter, not because they are pagans, but because of their politics.  They are topical fascists that way.

Now THAT was a great answer!  I disagree about "Atheists see things from their inhuman, materialist, objective POV" as I sort of feel "human" but the rest was very impressive. 

You should do that more often. I can deal with that better than bad jokes.

"Most of the atheists here apply incompetent and irrelevant literary criticism (because of how the Bible is used politically).  They would burn the Bible, but not Harry Potter, not because they are pagans, but because of their politics.  They are topical fascists that way"

OK, first, I look at the bible factually.  Or unfactually, mostly.  Genesis is nonsense, there was no all-earth flood, methuselah didn't live 1,000 years, Jesus is a metaphor for collective preachers of a downtrodden desperate group etc. 

I might burn the bible, and other religious texts, but only after everyone gave the ideas up as irrational nonsense.  And keep some copies in libraries as examples of "primitive human superstitions". 

You don't actually know what you think of a deity anyway, so the details don't matter to you.  And I applaud you for that.  You are slowly on your way to giving up on theism in general.  Keep going.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Online Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #153 on: August 01, 2018, 07:13:35 AM »
As a materialist ... everything is just atoms to you.  And life and consciousness are mysteries (but they aren't to a 6 year old boy who hasn't learned materialism yet).  The boy just lives.  The man is burdened with many more years of bullshit.  Epicurus was wrong.

As a rationalist ... everything is just formulas to you (see Pythagorean theorem).  The empirical behavior of things in general, and people in particular, are mysteries to you, because they don't make sense in your "play chess by the rules" world.  Pythagoras was wrong.

No matter how old I get, I continue to strive forward, one claw mark at a time (cats).  But my destination isn't in your imagination, or even in mine.  My modesty about "knowledge" works against both Mousetrap and his detractors.  Y'all are legends in your own egos, and call me out for arrogance ;-)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 07:16:25 AM by Baruch »
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Offline Sal1981

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #154 on: August 01, 2018, 07:37:55 AM »
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As a materialist ... everything is just atoms to you.  And life and consciousness are mysteries (but they aren't to a 6 year old boy who hasn't learned materialism yet).  The boy just lives.  The man is burdened with many more years of bullshit.  Epicurus was wrong.

As a rationalist ... everything is just formulas to you (see Pythagorean theorem).  The empirical behavior of things in general, and people in particular, are mysteries to you, because they don't make sense in your "play chess by the rules" world.  Pythagoras was wrong.

No matter how old I get, I continue to strive forward, one claw mark at a time (cats).  But my destination isn't in your imagination, or even in mine.  My modesty about "knowledge" works against both Mousetrap and his detractors.  Y'all are legends in your own egos, and call me out for arrogance ;-)
Sounds like the character out of the movie The Master played by Philip Seymour Hoffman; you're a mystic.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Online Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #155 on: August 01, 2018, 07:39:55 AM »
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Sounds like the character out of the movie The Master played by Philip Seymour Hoffman; you're a mystic.

I am a mystic, because I pulled my head out of my you know what ;-)  Otherwise, all is darkness, in here.

Yes, history may rhyme, but as individuals were are just random recombinations of other lives.
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Offline Cavebear

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #156 on: August 01, 2018, 07:47:51 AM »
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As a materialist ... everything is just atoms to you.  And life and consciousness are mysteries (but they aren't to a 6 year old boy who hasn't learned materialism yet).  The boy just lives.  The man is burdened with many more years of bullshit.  Epicurus was wrong.

As a rationalist ... everything is just formulas to you (see Pythagorean theorem).  The empirical behavior of things in general, and people in particular, are mysteries to you, because they don't make sense in your "play chess by the rules" world.  Pythagoras was wrong.

No matter how old I get, I continue to strive forward, one claw mark at a time (cats).  But my destination isn't in your imagination, or even in mine.  My modesty about "knowledge" works against both Mousetrap and his detractors.  Y'all are legends in your own egos, and call me out for arrogance ;-)

Well, nope, nope, and nope.  As a theist at heart, you misunderstand logic.  All is not atoms, formulas, or non-emotion to me.  I do understand that you fail to understand this.  And your destination is your own, I relly don't care that much about where you think you are going. 

For all I know, you will find a deity suited to you some day.  All I ever say is that I haven't seen any evidence of one and don't expect to.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #157 on: August 01, 2018, 07:55:49 AM »
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Took you a long time to ask that obvious question ;-) One has to have a personal and social relationship with divinity (however you define that).  Scripture, religion don't matter as authorities for me.  You are bound to scripture for example.  So you can't "completely" think outside the box you put yourself into.  You are circumscribed by dead authority, not living free.  Which is OK, you can do what you want.  I need more freedom than that.  The atheists here take science or nature as their authority.  I consider my own experience to be my authority, for me.  Not for anyone else.

In my case I am humanist, I value humans in general, highest of all.  Not that they are easy to be, live with, or work with.  As a human, I view divinity in personalist terms.  I consider the personal to be more central than the impersonal.  So for these matters, I don't find science useful at all.  You seem to think, as the atheists here, that science/nature  supports your position.  I value science or nature on their own terms, but not as a Swiss Army knife.

So what is divinity?  Doesn't matter in terms of objective reality.  As a personalist, humanist, I see divinity in more individual terms.  It is subjective on several levels.  I can't see things as a non-human!  I can't see things from G-d's eye (objectivity).  Usually in reading scripture, the POV of the reader is the omniscient narrator.  That is not the POV of the writer.  Exegesis is hard, because we are always tempted to read in what we want to find.  You or the atheists here differ on how you "read in".  Atheists see things from their inhuman, materialist, objective POV.

So what can I conclude, situationally, today?  That seeing the Bible from the POV of ancient contemporaries, both Jewish and non-Jewish, gives you better literary criticism.  Most of the atheists here apply incompetent and irrelevant literary criticism (because of how the Bible is used politically).  They would burn the Bible, but not Harry Potter, not because they are pagans, but because of their politics.  They are topical fascists that way.
Wow!
Thank you.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #158 on: August 01, 2018, 08:15:31 AM »
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As a materialist ... everything is just atoms to you. 
Baruch,
My point of view is that I also do not like religions, it is a money making scam.
I do not like atheism, as you call it materialism.
I found incredible peace in the belief I now have.
To me, this was enough.
However, I love to discuss the existence of a Creator, or the absence thereof.

If it were not for my pessimistic character, I would never have questioned anything and would have been quite contempt to live...as you say...in the dark.

But I decided to investigate and when I crossed lines with Muslims and Atheists, I saw that their arguments was one of materialism.

To me, the Bible could be correct or corrupt, no problem.
But when someone claims errors from the Bible, or any other book for that matter, I want to challenge it to see If I am still on the true state of what I believe in.
On the other hand, if anyone, such as Muslims makes claims on how great the Quran is, for instance, I would also investigate to that possibility.

This forced me into a situation where I had to mix the Physical with the Metaphysical.
If someone claim the Bible is silly because of the 12 plagues, and I see how there are evidence in archaeology and scientific explanations on how frogs, lice, flies could turn into plaques due to red tide in the Nile, or how hail mixed with sulpher and darkness could develop due to Thera / Santorini that had a massive volcanic explosion, I am forced to draw a line between staying with the Metaphysical, and explaining the Physical.
To me God is the Existence, the physical is the result. to try to prove God with the Physical is just as lame as to disprove God with it all together.

However, I have a Book which your ancestors collected thousands of years ago, which to me explains one thing.

In it, The Existence claims to have Authored its contents.
If that is true, then the Physical must be in line with that description.

For that reason, my stay here on this forum.
So far, Atheists cant crack it at all!
They ere all having some silly opinion of the Bible, but as you can see, they did not have the facts straight,!

So much for my claim to fame, or failure.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #159 on: August 01, 2018, 09:13:22 AM »
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My point of view is that I also do not like religions, it is a money making scam.
I do not like atheism, as you call it materialism.
I found incredible peace in the belief I now have.
To me, this was enough.
However, I love to discuss the existence of a Creator, or the absence thereof.


Mouse, I relate to the above 100%.  Except my exploration led me to atheism and materialism (as you call it, but I suspect we define it quite differently) as the provider of light.  I too, have found incredible peace in my thinking and that is enough.  But I do like to discuss religion and philosophy. 

I popped out of my mom into total darkness (so to speak) and could understand little to nothing.  My life have been searching for the light of knowledge and awareness.  Self awareness has come slowly partly because as an introvert I have found solace within  the cave of myself.  But after a bit, I become restless and venture out to continue expanding my search for light, knowledge and awareness.  I have searched all the 'isms' and found that the rational makes the most sense to me.  All religions (and all gods) have failed the test of the rational, at least for myself.  So, what is left?  What most call atheism.  I'm not fond of that label as it is simply a negative--for me there isn't a single piece of proof indicates to me that any god(s) ever existed and that that concept is totally man-made.  I view theism as basically fiction, so to identify myself with simply being against a fiction seems a little silly; sort of identifying myself abugs bunny, or aelemer Fudd--how can one be against a fiction.  I don't really 'believe' in anything.  I think some things are true or accurate--like the Earth is covered in moving tectonic plates--and have built my world view (and self view) based on that type of data and information.  I fully realize that I don't really have any 'answers' beyond what seems to work for myself.  I also fully realize that I may be wrong or hold ideas that are false because of the lack of information; I am not afraid to say 'I don't know'.  Yet I have come to a place in my life where I am content and at peace. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Online Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #160 on: August 01, 2018, 12:43:35 PM »
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Well, nope, nope, and nope.  As a theist at heart, you misunderstand logic.  All is not atoms, formulas, or non-emotion to me.  I do understand that you fail to understand this.  And your destination is your own, I relly don't care that much about where you think you are going. 

For all I know, you will find a deity suited to you some day.  All I ever say is that I haven't seen any evidence of one and don't expect to.

So much wrong ... but OK to be your own self.  I understand logic better than a wannabe Vulcan.  Get your ears cropped?  And I talk to a broader audience than just you, though to you as well.  We have to "segment" a conversation to specifically you and me, to do that.  Not a materialist?  Maybe you don't understand materialism?  Your skepticism isn't a bad thing, or empiricism ... but don't forget to be skeptical of skepticism too.
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #161 on: August 01, 2018, 01:25:15 PM »
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As a materialist ... everything is just atoms to you.

So what? Everything can be broken down into simpler parts. That doesn't take away from the whole. My favorite video games are "just" 0's and 1's in a program. My favorite foods are "just" a few ingredients put together. Materialism deepens our understanding of how things work; it doesn't make those things any less special. Nor does adding the extra ingredient of an invisible, intangible soul somehow make people more special.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Online Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #162 on: August 01, 2018, 07:03:52 PM »
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So what? Everything can be broken down into simpler parts. That doesn't take away from the whole. My favorite video games are "just" 0's and 1's in a program. My favorite foods are "just" a few ingredients put together. Materialism deepens our understanding of how things work; it doesn't make those things any less special. Nor does adding the extra ingredient of an invisible, intangible soul somehow make people more special.

Wrong.  When reductionism is a good technique, you can break things down into simpler parts.  Particularly if humans assembled them from simpler parts.  But reductionism or X-anything ... isn't a one trick pony.

Is materialism helpful?  Sometimes.  Use the tool that works, according to circumstance and pragmatic experience.  But there is no panacea, in medicine or epistemology.  Ask Pythagoras or Democritus ... your parents ...

Materialism or spiritism ... if all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail.  Except everything isn't a nail.  Even physics has a hard time showing that mass-energy is the same as space-time.  Einstein tried and failed ... because quantum got in the way of his classical idealization (which he actually borrowed from William Kingdon Clifford.  This was explored in literature in Flatland and Mr Tompkins ... and even H G Wells (who didn't use a rocket or a cannon to get to the moon).

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Now we have M-theory and Superstrings as the new luminiferous ether ... relativity has been shown wanting, as all over-simplifications do.  There is one field, to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them (with bosons).  The G-d Particle (Higgs).  Sauron was a materialist.  And a gold-bug.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 07:10:15 PM by Baruch »
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Online Baruch

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #163 on: August 03, 2018, 06:57:25 PM »
Fiery Finger Of G-d strikes Californication ...

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Guess the people etc there, were up to no good.

Per Exodus, time for a prophet to arrive and lead the Hebrews (and mixed multitude) to the Promised Land ... apparently Germany, since they are now giving paid vacations to refugees.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 07:00:02 PM by Baruch »
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Offline Cavebear

Re: The ONE THING?
« Reply #164 on: August 04, 2018, 01:39:29 AM »
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Materialism or spiritism ... if all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail.  Except everything isn't a nail....
 
Now we have M-theory and Superstrings as the new luminiferous ether ... relativity has been shown wanting, as all over-simplifications do.  There is one field, to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them (with bosons).  The G-d Particle (Higgs).  Sauron was a materialist.  And a gold-bug.

Not everyone thinks a hammer is the only tool.

I have been suggesting for over 25 years that Einstein and "spacetime" will eventually be shown wrong in favor of some "more-understandable" idea.  It's coming, slowly...

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

 

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