Author Topic: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'  (Read 545 times)

Offline Munch

transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« on: July 03, 2018, 04:51:44 PM »
A curious thought someone ran by when they were discussing the recent changes to the uk banning gay conversion 'therapy'.
For the record, I was friends with a transgender man years ago and he told me the whole method he went through to become a man, it wasn't just hormone treatment, it was him living as a man for a year or more, dressing, talking like, becoming his new self before the first op and hormone treatment began.
He told me it was a lengthy process and he needed to let go of a lot to get there and become his new self, but he was happy in the end when he got to his goal.

On this thread I was reading, someone raised a point that made me stop and think. Now obviously I'm against the idea of gay conversation, it isn't therapy so much as it is mentally indoctrinating someone into denying who they really are, all normally by people who see homosexuality as an abnormality or something to hate.

While I hold people who make these 'services' with the upmost contempt, its the people themselves who say they don't want to be gay anymore that make me wonder.

You can see where this is going.

If someone is born a gender and later on decides they don't want to be that gender anymore, they can achieve that like say though conversion by psychologically prepping themselves to change, then going though the treatments and ops.
A gay man who is convinced he doesn't want to be gay anymore goes to these 'services' to psychologically get turned straight. Perhaps a lot of the time these are people forced into it by homophobes or ignorant family members and they think its the only way they can be 'normal' in their mind.

I guess this is more an observation and questioning the differences. The argument could be made that there are people who live in misery being one gender and want to be another to be happy, as I observed myself with my friend. The other is the claim that they are unhappy being gay and wants to be 'cured of it' to achieve happiness. Yet we've seen plenty of cases of people going though this 'therapy' for them to break down or even kill themselves for denying their sexuality.

Whats the line here is the question, one is good, one is bad, but both are so similar. 

Offline Hydra009

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2018, 05:18:22 PM »
A big difference here is whether the change is driven by internal or external factors.

Is the person going to gay conversion therapy because it's their own choice or because other people have pushed them into it?  Have they internalized other people's negative attitudes towards homosexuality?

With transgender issues, unless I'm seriously underestimating the peer pressure to go through the lengthy and expensive transition process, I'm fairly certain I can chalk it up to internal causes.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 05:22:47 PM by Hydra009 »

Offline Baruch

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2018, 06:09:27 PM »
There are reasons to condemn human sexual behavior (primarily sexual promiscuity and rape).  But being or trans aren't among them.
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Offline Mermaid

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2018, 07:14:09 PM »
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There are reasons to condemn human sexual behavior (primarily sexual promiscuity and rape).  But being or trans aren't among them.
What is wrong with sexual promiscuity?
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

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Offline Baruch

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2018, 07:47:57 PM »
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What is wrong with sexual promiscuity?

Biologically, mathematically, it leads to greater outbreaks of STD.  It takes a lot more effort, to reduce communicable disease the more different people come into close contact with each other (unless of course all infected people are identified and quarantined) ... it is doable of course ... but people would have to be very careful.  And we know that isn't going to happen.

Do you have your sex partners checked for STD before every intimacy?  Well if one is monogamous, one doesn't have to worry, if the partners are initially clean and don't go outside the relationship.  Though I don't think I would go so far as to disallow any relationship between people who weren't initially both virgins.  This applies to both partners of course.  Most people aren't sex maniacs either, but those who are do tremendous damage.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 07:50:32 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Mermaid

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2018, 07:51:00 PM »
It's very odd that you'd point this out together with rape for unacceptable sexual practices.
Eating hamburgers leads to a higher incidence of diabetes, too.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Offline Baruch

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2018, 07:52:37 PM »
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It's very odd that you'd point this out together with rape for unacceptable sexual practices.
Eating hamburgers leads to a higher incidence of diabetes, too.

Yes, and in the liberal dictatorship, those will be banned too!  I was not equating the two.  One is semi-voluntary (usually an infected person doesn't know or fails to tell their partner).
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 07:54:08 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Munch

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2018, 07:55:50 PM »
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A big difference here is whether the change is driven by internal or external factors.

Is the person going to gay conversion therapy because it's their own choice or because other people have pushed them into it?  Have they internalized other people's negative attitudes towards homosexuality?

With transgender issues, unless I'm seriously underestimating the peer pressure to go through the lengthy and expensive transition process, I'm fairly certain I can chalk it up to internal causes.

thats a good point, its pretty much assured external forces causes those internal thoughts and feelings for gay people to want to be 'cured', where as its very unlikely a common thing for someone wanting to be transgendered that it comes from external forces.

Offline aitm

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2018, 09:18:56 PM »
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If someone is born a gender and later on decides they don't want to be that gender anymore,

I doubt anyone would want to be anything other than "normal". Whether gay, mental illness, physically handicapped, everyone would prefer to be "normal". And why not? The animosity towards anything not "normal" can be intense, especially as a child. Why would anyone want anyone else to be anything else but normal?

I understand the parents plight when they have children that are different, they bend to all kinds of psychological pretzels to justify, recognize and legitimize "abnormal". They have to. They can't deal with it any other way. And then they form groups to reinforce their positions,,ala religion. And I understand that as well.

But even abnormal....when it is an established, recurring percentage, is not an abnormality, it is a lesser trait, for my current lack of better wording. It is an acceptable trait, like red head, that has, is and will continue....until genetic manipulation can change it.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Cavebear

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2018, 11:40:25 PM »
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I doubt anyone would want to be anything other than "normal". Whether gay, mental illness, physically handicapped, everyone would prefer to be "normal". And why not? The animosity towards anything not "normal" can be intense, especially as a child. Why would anyone want anyone else to be anything else but normal?

I understand the parents plight when they have children that are different, they bend to all kinds of psychological pretzels to justify, recognize and legitimize "abnormal". They have to. They can't deal with it any other way. And then they form groups to reinforce their positions,,ala religion. And I understand that as well.

But even abnormal....when it is an established, recurring percentage, is not an abnormality, it is a lesser trait, for my current lack of better wording. It is an acceptable trait, like red head, that has, is and will continue....until genetic manipulation can change it.

I suspect you are going to be hit for that a lot.  You just said that anyone who isn't straight heterosexual isn't "normal". 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Hydra009

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2018, 11:58:41 PM »
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I doubt anyone would want to be anything other than "normal". Whether gay, mental illness, physically handicapped, everyone would prefer to be "normal". And why not? The animosity towards anything not "normal" can be intense, especially as a child. Why would anyone want anyone else to be anything else but normal?
Comic con (and tumblr) would apparently disagree.  While there is intense pressure to conform to baseline humanity, there is also a drive to diverge, albeit into subcultures with their own standards of conformity.

Everyone wants to be different.  Everyone needs to be the same.

Offline Cavebear

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2018, 12:12:58 AM »
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Comic con (and tumblr) would apparently disagree.  While there is intense pressure to conform to baseline humanity, there is also a drive to diverge, albeit into subcultures with their own standards of conformity.

Everyone wants to be different.  Everyone needs to be the same.

Well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  I understand the difference between "want" and "need", but maybe some more explanation would be helpful ...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Hydra009

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2018, 01:29:18 AM »
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Well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  I understand the difference between "want" and "need", but maybe some more explanation would be helpful ...
EL15:  despite social pressure to conform to wider society, people attempt to express themselves and their subculture.

Offline Cavebear

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2018, 01:41:36 AM »
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EL15:  despite social pressure to conform to wider society, people attempt to express themselves and their subculture.

I'm an atheist, a minority in my society.  Tell me something I DON'T understand about THAT.

And here is something to think about.  Gays are elected to public office openly.  Are atheists?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: transgenderism and gay conversion 'therapy'
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2018, 07:19:11 AM »
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I'm an atheist, a minority in my society.  Tell me something I DON'T understand about THAT.

And here is something to think about.  Gays are elected to public office openly.  Are atheists?

For diversity, I want more Nazis, Marxists and pedophiles in office!  Won't mind atheists though.  Everyone must conform to my choice of tolerance, and especially to my choice of intolerance!  I want to now!
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