Author Topic: Theist Morality is Subjective  (Read 822 times)

Theist Morality is Subjective
« on: June 30, 2018, 12:01:12 PM »
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Theists: "Subjective morality based on feelings doesn't feel right to me, so I reject the notion that feelings are a basis for morality based on my feelings."

"Atheists can't have a basis for objective morality because their ideas of right and wrong vary from person to person. I mean, theists disagree on matters of morality all the time, but people who disagree with my personal religious beliefs don't count."
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 12:34:31 AM by Blackleaf »
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Offline Baruch

Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2018, 12:22:42 PM »
True.  The claim by either side that morality is objective ... including natural or evolutionary law ... is specious.  As a predatory species, predation is moral (even if we don't like it much).
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Offline Sal1981

Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2018, 03:45:41 PM »
I think morality is ultimately subjective, but that doesn't mean we're unable to guide through life with such a subjective outlook. It just means that moral decisions and actions are down to the individual.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Offline Baruch

Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2018, 05:28:28 PM »
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I think morality is ultimately subjective, but that doesn't mean we're unable to guide through life with such a subjective outlook. It just means that moral decisions and actions are down to the individual.

We can choose when, where, how ... we predate, and against who and why.
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Online Munch

Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2018, 08:00:20 PM »
Sometimes I wonder where the correlation is between intellect and morality. I've often looked at empathy as a developed mental state that works on its own degree of development in the same way the capacity for knowledge does, infact its been identified within the brain as the anterior insular cortex, so its possible this area can be more or less developed in each person, maybe even it being less developed in some who have higher developed parts.

As such I think empathy can play a strong role in approach to morality, though its possible it could work against it too, what feels right to what is morally right.

I do think though that morality comes from some more then others on the basis of this kind of development.

Offline aitm

Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2018, 12:31:05 PM »
As we see more and more evidence that animals that are naturally predator/prey can and are cohabiting with varying degrees of actual "friendship" it suggests that perhaps the idea of what is hereditary and what is learned needs to be re-evaluated. If by not teaching a lion cub to kill means it can walk and play among the antelope without any intention of killing it suggests that learned behavior is far more the driving force on personality.

Being raised to be brutal against others would not present moral issues to said individual who sees no "issues" to be "moral" about.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Baruch

Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2018, 12:51:01 PM »
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As we see more and more evidence that animals that are naturally predator/prey can and are cohabiting with varying degrees of actual "friendship" it suggests that perhaps the idea of what is hereditary and what is learned needs to be re-evaluated. If by not teaching a lion cub to kill means it can walk and play among the antelope without any intention of killing it suggests that learned behavior is far more the driving force on personality.

Being raised to be brutal against others would not present moral issues to said individual who sees no "issues" to be "moral" about.

Not all animals can be tamed.  Sheep can, lions cannot.  It remains to be seen, in the experiment we call human culture, if humans can be tamed.  So far the answer is no (it is a genetic thing in the animals, why not in humans too?).
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2018, 01:18:45 AM »
As I understand it, "morality" is following religious commandments.  I prefer "ethics", which are human in origin and reflect what is required for people to get along in large groups.  And I will say that most religious books are merely reflections of what human society requires to survive, rather than what some deity-oriented rules demand.

The religious rules that make sense to most people are the ones that actually apply to people.  Don't Murder, Don't Steal, Honor the Elders.  The ones that make no particular sense are the most religious ones. 

Honor a one day of the week (why)?  Do not blaspheme (why the god-damn Jesus, Mohhamed, Erhu, Odin, hell not?)  No gods before me (would a deity be THAT insecure)?  Make no graven image (right, no Mona Lisa, no David, no Botticelli 'The Birth Of Venus' in our world).

I pay no attention to any theisitic rules...  They are all unsensible and anti-human.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2018, 12:53:15 PM »
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As I understand it, "morality" is following religious commandments.  I prefer "ethics", which are human in origin and reflect what is required for people to get along in large groups.  And I will say that most religious books are merely reflections of what human society requires to survive, rather than what some deity-oriented rules demand.

The religious rules that make sense to most people are the ones that actually apply to people.  Don't Murder, Don't Steal, Honor the Elders.  The ones that make no particular sense are the most religious ones. 

Honor a one day of the week (why)?  Do not blaspheme (why the god-damn Jesus, Mohhamed, Erhu, Odin, hell not?)  No gods before me (would a deity be THAT insecure)?  Make no graven image (right, no Mona Lisa, no David, no Botticelli 'The Birth Of Venus' in our world).

I pay no attention to any theisitic rules...  They are all unsensible and anti-human.

Yes, ethics is the secular term, morality is the religious one.  But I will take ethics in a pinch.  Though sometimes people restrict this to "professional ethics" ... but I think that is too narrow.  Ethics applies to everyone, even if morality does not.
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Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2018, 07:09:34 AM »
I don't think any kind of morality is subjective. I think it's all objective. Some people get the answers right more than others... and theists on the whole tend to get the answers right less often . . . due to basing their answers on an imaginary entity.

Offline Baruch

Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2018, 12:42:51 PM »
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I don't think any kind of morality is subjective. I think it's all objective. Some people get the answers right more than others... and theists on the whole tend to get the answers right less often . . . due to basing their answers on an imaginary entity.

OK per Pythagoras or Thales ... derive ethics from math or physics.
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Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2018, 05:00:07 PM »
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OK per Pythagoras or Thales ... derive ethics from math or physics.

That would be silly. Math and physics are both bootstrapped from logic... why shouldn't ethics be?

Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2018, 06:27:02 PM »
etik orders the being interconnekted of the people. it is about social order.

Offline Baruch

Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2018, 07:15:08 PM »
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That would be silly. Math and physics are both bootstrapped from logic... why shouldn't ethics be?

After you explain Modal Logic to me (I am having trouble there) .. maybe we can talk about this.  Simple predicate logic won't help ...

All Athenians are aardvarks
Socrates is an Athenian
Therefore ... Socrates is an aardvark.

Perfect logic, but bad first premise, because it violates empirical reality.
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Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2018, 11:25:46 AM »
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After you explain Modal Logic to me (I am having trouble there) .. maybe we can talk about this.  Simple predicate logic won't help ...

Modal logic refers to what is possible in other universes. You were the one who brought it up first, not me.


Quote
All Athenians are aardvarks
Socrates is an Athenian
Therefore ... Socrates is an aardvark.

Perfect logic, but bad first premise, because it violates empirical reality.

True and irrelevant to my points.

 

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