Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Democratic Socialist, Beats 10-Term Congressman

Started by Shiranu, June 27, 2018, 02:19:32 AM

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Shiranu

Quote from: pr126 on June 30, 2018, 12:48:01 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XgdtHewGR0

It doesn't work, except in the overwhelming majority of cases where it does (i.e. the entire Western world, even America). You always complain about the "other" coming and destroying the Western way of life, and yet you seem to be opposed to basically everything in our culture that makes us better than everyone else.

*Does best pr impression* - If you hate democratic socialism so much pr, why don't you move to Saudi Arabia? I hear it's really nice this time of year. Maybe head off to North Korea or Turkey.


Stop and think about it... no SJWs, no women making too much noise... being surrounded by people who agree with you on Islam... it would be paradise!
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

GSOgymrat

Quote from: pr126 on June 30, 2018, 12:48:01 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XgdtHewGR0

Stephen Crowder is correct that socialism and capitalism are two different philosophies of governing. I can also agree with many of the points he makes about the benefits of capitalism. It all boils down to, as Crowder states, what is the legitimate role of government. Crowder and I have a different idea about where that line should be drawn. I believe Crowder creates a false dichotomy, you either are a capitalist or a socialist. He believes that anything beyond the justice system and national defense shouldn't be administered or regulated by the government and I think the government needs to have a broader role, yet I don't consider myself a socialist because I don't want the government to take over the means of production and or try to create financial equity. I consider Crowder an ideologue and I'm more a pragmatist who has no problem using government when necessary to fix problems-- I'll use all the tools available. I also think Crowder and I have different ideas of what liberty looks like. For Crowder, freedom is not having the government force people to do things, where I see liberty as not simply freedom from the government but a system that allows for more opportunities for its citizens.

I'm in agreement with Crowder that if the free market can provide good outcomes the government need not be involved. For example, I'm not convinced a federal minimum wage leads to better outcomes. An example where I would disagree is in an area such as healthcare. Free markets depend on people being able to exchange money for services but with healthcare sick people often can't work and therefore don't have the money to afford care. There are many reasons, even purely selfish reasons, why it is in no one's best interest for citizens to be sick or disabled. Healthcare isn't like other goods and services and "the invisible hand of the market" isn't going to work here. Americans have proven it doesn't work. I work in an emergency room and it would be in the hospital's best financial interest if we only treated people who had the ability to pay. There have been cases (NOT where I work) where emergency department staff literally drove sick people off and dropped them off on the curb in their hospital gown because they didn't have the ability to pay. The reason all hospitals don't do this is that it is illegal but there is nothing in the free market model that would prevent healthcare providers from not treating people who can't pay. Government is needed to solve this problem.

Baruch

Aggregate analysis is hard, and fraught with statistical falsehoods and spurious "weighting".

Ask what improved health care for instance, will do for person X ... then we can agree.  What a 1% increase in inflation will do for a million people ... is just a statistic.  But of course for collectivists, only the mass of people, and the so called average Joe they derive from statistics ... matters.  Ideological tools of the political class.

We can't be completely individualist or completely collectivist ... we have to do both.  But the extremists don't care.

The EUSSR is falling, just like the USSR.  And deliberately demolished by its opponents.  The US is opposed to socialism, period.  We are using the ME and China and Russia to destroy the EUSSR.  The Brexit British are trying to scurry out of the cross-fire, but they are too late.  You will all end up like Greece, and under the Silk Road Pact ... not Nato.

Unfortunately people only see what they want to see.  Europe or parts of it are paradise, and those not already there want to get there.  Same as half the human race who is trying to get there, for all the free shit.  Singing .. China, Russia, Uber Alles ...
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: trdsf on June 29, 2018, 01:20:31 PM
...
Pretty much.  I know I want the Democrats to actually be Democrats again, not just some sort of Republican Lite in cheaper suits, and I think that a number of my brother and sister Dems are finally feeling the same way.  I hate what the DLC did to the party, whose answer to the losses of the '80s was not to find a way to better deliver our message, but to instead move in the direction of the Republicansâ€"the one major thing I hold against Bill and Hillary, although they're still a damn sight better than the alternative.
...
I heard a Republican strategist forcefully claiming on MSNBC today that Democrats had moved far to the "left" and that half the voters supported ending Roe v Wade, and some other nonsense about "most people" supporting all anti-immigrant actions of the Trump Administration.

It was falsifiable nonsense of course.  The Democrats have moved slightly toward the center, because quite frankly, as a political party, they are weak fools who couln't beat a 10 year old Republican in any strategic game.  They don't have the will to stand up and fight Republicans toe to toe, they are embarrassed to raise their voices about things that should matter to them, and they wilt when confronted. 

I used to be a Republican.  I understand how they think.  Play chess, not Candyland.  Take no prisoners.  Make whatever argument works TODAY!  Admit nothing, lie about anything, and crush the enemy!  Abuse any rule, break any tradition, take advantage of and custom that gives the least little advantage.  Rules are made to be broken, they think.

I discussed basketball with a carpool member who was an utter Republican.  He admitted without any shame that the only point of penalties in basketball was to make an evaluation of the benefits of committing them versus the cost of the penalty.  He saw it COMPLETELY as a benefit analysis vs a matter of obeying the rules.

THAT is what we Democrats are facing.  The Republicans are not playing by the same rules (or any).  They will try to win with any argument that gets their base excited to vote for them.

Better get down into the trenches, or Dems will loose for the next generation.

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

MSM is falsifiable of course.  No better than YouTube ... just that it has DNC support.  And your description shows by the R's win as much as they do (despite being more despicable than Bugs Bunny (as claimed by Daffy Duck).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

trdsf

Quote from: Hydra009 on June 29, 2018, 02:24:15 PM
Perhaps.  But parties only exist because of large bases of support.  The political polarization of America has affected both politicians and voters.  Similarly, there's been an erosion of "moderate" positions between Democrats and Republicans.

What would a centrist party platform even look like?  Muslims shouldn't be allowed to enter the country except the ones who know how to make really good falafel?  Gay marriage is immoral and unnatural and sinful in the eyes of God but gays can get hitched in California?  Healthcare for all but only if gay conversion therapy is included?

I'm kidding of course and being wildly sardonic, but surely, you see the problem here.
The thing is, occupying the center ground didn't used to be a problemâ€"it was how things actually got done.

Interesting you should bring up health care -- Eisenhower and Nixon both proposed something along the lines of a proto-ACA, federal supports for purchasing private insurance and federal assistance for the poorest rather than a straight universal program.  So yes, we could have had a partial solution nearly 50 years ago, and we might still be calling it 'Nixoncare' to this day had it happened.

From Reagan onwards, however, even that was too much for the GOP to countenance, until we reached the point where Dubya's "solution" was not to actually provide coverage, but tort reform and medical savings accountsâ€"as if the uninsured, mainly low-earners, are a) spending their money on attorneys rather than on health insurance, and/or b) can just magically sock away a couple thousand dollars and the only reason they don't is because their interest rates are taxed.  I mean, how do you compromise with that delusional a take on reality?

And even if you wanted to, the modern GOP considers 'compromise' just as dirty a word as they do 'liberal' -- which was on display during their failed attempt to kill the ACA, when they couldn't even compromise with themselves.

Anyway, if the GOP loses in the next few election cycles, either the less-ideologically bound are going to say "fuck this" and seek out some ground closer to the center, or the money's going to go away when they're in minority and can't deliver anymore.  Either result is deadly to what the Republican party has evolved into, and I would love to see it happen.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Baruch

Truman also proposed a national health plan.  Kennedy actually tried to get people to exercise, including in Elementary School ... I was there when it happened.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Poison Tree

Quote from: Baruch on July 02, 2018, 06:32:52 PM
Kennedy actually tried to get people to exercise, including in Elementary School
I could never do the 'sit and reach'
"Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches" Voltaire�s Candide

Hydra009

Quote from: trdsf on July 02, 2018, 01:22:14 PMAnyway, if the GOP loses in the next few election cycles, either the less-ideologically bound are going to say "fuck this" and seek out some ground closer to the center, or the money's going to go away when they're in minority and can't deliver anymore.  Either result is deadly to what the Republican party has evolved into, and I would love to see it happen.
That's what I thought not long ago.  I figured that the McCain and Romney loses would get it through their thick skulls that they're barking up the wrong tree by doubling down on gay marriage (a fight they ultimately lost) and opposing Obamacare.

And then, during a weak primary with such luminaries as Jeb "please applaud" Bush and Ted "stepmom doesn't technically count as incest" Cruz, a strange thing happened.  Trump swooped in and took over.  Arguably, the Republican party died that day.  Now it's just the Trump cult.  And after scandal after scandal - some frivolous, some serious, some heart-attack serious - about 40% of the country looks at this orange turd and say he's doing just fine.

Why change?  Apparently, this new tack is working out for them just fine.  (...for the time being.  The generational/ethnic stats paint a bleak long-term picture for the GOP but I have sneaking suspicion they'll go scorched earth by that time.)

Baruch

The Democrat party died also ... it became the party of Clinton!  Good riddance to both of them, unfortunately the zombie parties continue to look for brains!
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

trdsf

Quote from: Hydra009 on July 03, 2018, 12:03:39 AM
That's what I thought not long ago.  I figured that the McCain and Romney loses would get it through their thick skulls that they're barking up the wrong tree by doubling down on gay marriage (a fight they ultimately lost) and opposing Obamacare.

And then, during a weak primary with such luminaries as Jeb "please applaud" Bush and Ted "stepmom doesn't technically count as incest" Cruz, a strange thing happened.  Trump swooped in and took over.  Arguably, the Republican party died that day.  Now it's just the Trump cult.  And after scandal after scandal - some frivolous, some serious, some heart-attack serious - about 40% of the country looks at this orange turd and say he's doing just fine.

Why change?  Apparently, this new tack is working out for them just fine.  (...for the time being.  The generational/ethnic stats paint a bleak long-term picture for the GOP but I have sneaking suspicion they'll go scorched earth by that time.)
That's why a good Democratic turnout this fall that blows through all the gerrymandering the Repubs did in '12 will be a lesson they can't fail to notice.  When you look at the advantage they built in for themselves, if they *still* can't hold the House... yeah.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Cavebear

Quote from: trdsf on July 02, 2018, 01:22:14 PM
The thing is, occupying the center ground didn't used to be a problemâ€"it was how things actually got done.

Interesting you should bring up health care -- Eisenhower and Nixon both proposed something along the lines of a proto-ACA, federal supports for purchasing private insurance and federal assistance for the poorest rather than a straight universal program.  So yes, we could have had a partial solution nearly 50 years ago, and we might still be calling it 'Nixoncare' to this day had it happened.

From Reagan onwards, however, even that was too much for the GOP to countenance, until we reached the point where Dubya's "solution" was not to actually provide coverage, but tort reform and medical savings accountsâ€"as if the uninsured, mainly low-earners, are a) spending their money on attorneys rather than on health insurance, and/or b) can just magically sock away a couple thousand dollars and the only reason they don't is because their interest rates are taxed.  I mean, how do you compromise with that delusional a take on reality?

And even if you wanted to, the modern GOP considers 'compromise' just as dirty a word as they do 'liberal' -- which was on display during their failed attempt to kill the ACA, when they couldn't even compromise with themselves.

Anyway, if the GOP loses in the next few election cycles, either the less-ideologically bound are going to say "fuck this" and seek out some ground closer to the center, or the money's going to go away when they're in minority and can't deliver anymore.  Either result is deadly to what the Republican party has evolved into, and I would love to see it happen.

"delusional a take on reality", that's GOOD!

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Some interesting commentary for BernieBros ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl-j163g-KY

The embarrassing political ignorance of Americans, constantly forces me to go outside the US for something other than baby babbling.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

Quote from: trdsf on July 03, 2018, 10:55:44 AM
a lesson they can't fail to notice.
Really? Don't be too surprised when they fail to notice...
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman