Author Topic: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Democratic Socialist, Beats 10-Term Congressman  (Read 1203 times)

Offline Shiranu

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Pro-Universal Healthcare, pro-Immigration rights (and in favour of the abolition of ICE), pro-government backed work programs... and she won in America (okay, in New York)... fuck yes.



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[size=1.2rem]Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a 28-year-old Latina running her first campaign, ousted 10-term incumbent Rep. Joe Crowley in New York's 14th congressional district on Tuesday, CNN projects, in the most shocking upset of a rollicking political season.[/size]
An activist and member of the Democratic Socialists of America, Ocasio-Cortez won over voters in the minority-majority district with a ruthlessly efficient grassroots bid, even as Crowley -- the fourth-ranking Democrat in the House -- outraised her by a 10-to-1 margin.
This was the first time in 14 years a member of his own party has attempted to unseat Crowley, who chairs the Queens County Democrats. His defeat marks a potential sea change in the broader sphere of liberal politics -- a result with implications for Democrats nationwide that would recall, as optimistic progressives routinely noted during the campaign, former GOP Majority Leader Eric Cantor's loss to the insurgent, tea party-backed Dave Brat in June 2014.

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Offline pr126

What does pro universal health care mean?
"Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their free will."
 - Joseph Goebbels

Offline Shiranu

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What does pro universal health care mean?


Being in favour of universal healthcare.
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Offline pr126

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Being in favour of universal healthcare.

Ok, forget “pro” what is universal health care?

My guess is “Obamacare” with a new name.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 03:43:20 AM by pr126 »
"Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their free will."
 - Joseph Goebbels

Offline Shiranu

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Ok, forget “pro” what is universal health care?

My guess is “Obamacare” with a new name.


Universal healthcare is a system that is essentially using social money to provide healthcare and financial stability in regards to healthcare to all members of said society. Nearly universally it has proven to be both more cost effective, provide more coverage to more of the population, and to be a more efficient system all around. Considering you come from a country that practices this system, it seems weird to have to explain that.

And nope, rather she supports the "Improved and Expanded Medicare for All Act", which essentially allows all American citizens the right to buy into medicare; both providing affordable healthcare services as well as reducing the cost of medicare, which is already at a 60% lower growth than privatized insurance. While medicare is both cheaper and more transparent than private insurance (and covers more ailments), it does still require users to pay for half of the medical costs which is still too much for most Americans... so while that's a step in the right direction, it still needs work.

Nevertheless, I'll take "needs more work" over "completely broken, so let's not even try to fix it" (aka; private insurance) any day.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 04:08:49 AM by Shiranu »
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Offline Shiranu

Oh, and I forgot to mention... she worked for Bernie Sanders for a while, and in terms of fundraising... managed to scrap up $600,000 to her opponents Wall Street backed $6mil+.
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Offline pr126

So what about the 12 million “undocumented” citizens? More coming every day.
Who is paying for them?

And you want open borders too?


Socialist healthcare still needs to be payed for. And the quality of health care goes down markedly.

Have a look at the UK NHS.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 04:18:06 AM by pr126 »
"Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their free will."
 - Joseph Goebbels

Offline Shiranu

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So what about the 12 million “undocumented” citizens? Who is paying for them?

They pay for themselves; undocumented citizens pay taxes. In 2015 undocumented citizens paid an estimated $23.6 billion dollars in taxes[1] to the IRS.

Secondly, she wants to make the path to citizenship much more streamlined and opened, meaning they won't be undocumented... as well as abolishing ICE, which is a major player in keeping undocumented workers from reporting income or looking for more legitimate work.

Thirdly, the fact that they are undocumented does not somehow mean they deserve to have their basic quality of life needs denied to them.

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But why didn’t this work for Obama?

Maybe because he never proposed a universal healthcare bill, and the bill he did eventually get through was essentially a Republican healthcare bill from several decades ago that was still "too far left" for modern day Republicans.

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Socialist healthcare still needs to be payed for. And the quality of health care goes down markedly.

Yes, it does. But the numbers don't lie; socialized healthcare systems are significantly cheaper than privatized systems. We currently spend 17.4% of our total GDP on medical care, with the Dutch and Swiss being next at 11.1% of their total GDP (to compare, the UK only pays 8.5% of their total GDP in health care expenses).[2]

To put that into hard cash, that was in 2010 about $8,233 per person spent on health care. Using the 2010 graph where Norway was the second most expensive and Switzerland at third, the Norwegians paid $5.4k and Swiss $5.2k a year on health care per person (the United Kingdom paid $3.4k per person, or under half what Americans paid).[3]

I have quoted these numbers before, and perhaps it was for Gilga and not you, but I do not feel like going into them again. Essentially though, there are very, very few categories in which American healthcare is superiour to socialized countries healthcare, and when we are paying twice the amount and getting subpar results for it... I'm sorry, but you simply cannot argue that the quality of healthcare drops.[4]

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Have a look at the UK NHS.

I have, and for all it's flaws (as any system is going to have) it is still incredibly more cost effective, medically effective, and protects a much larger percentage of the population than the American healthcare system. If anything, you should be asking me NOT to look at it.









[1]http://taxpayeradvocate.irs.gov/Media/Default/Documents/2015ARC/ARC15_Volume1_MSP_18_ITIN.pdf

[2]https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2016/01/22/could-universal-health-care-save-us-taxpayers-money

[3]https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/health-costs-how-the-us-compares-with-other-countries

[4]https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-u-s-highest-rate-deaths-amenable-health-care-among-comparable-oecd-countries

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Offline Shiranu

Quote
And you want open borders too?

Borderline open, yes. Obviously people need to present ID, passport, etc. to come into the country, but if someone has the money to buy a house or apartment here and pays taxes, then they should be free to come and go as they please.
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Offline pr126

Only the rich can come and go as they please?
That is not what socialism is about!

How many rich people sneak in to the USA from the south in the dead of night wanting to buy a house and pay taxes?










« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 05:05:03 AM by pr126 »
"Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their free will."
 - Joseph Goebbels

Online Baruch

An OK development, but not the general election, just a primary.  Most D party primary challengers this year were more conservative than the incumbents they are challenging.  And there is no sign that the DNC will welcome Bernie Bros.
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Offline SGOS

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Ok, forget “pro” what is universal health care?

My guess is “Obamacare” with a new name.
No.  Universal Healthcare is what we expected 10 years ago.  Obamacare is what we got.  Obamacare is a Republican creation designed to undermine what the Clintons were trying to promote back in the early 90s.  They are completely different and unrelated
political solutions

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So what about the 12 million “undocumented” citizens? More coming every day.
Who is paying for them?  Socialist healthcare still needs to be payed for. And the quality of health care goes down markedly.
.

This is an important observation, and it's not something at the forefront of the debate in either Obamacare or Universal Healthcare.  We actually don't know how undocumented citizens will be handled.  But "Universal" may be misleading.  It doesn't mean automatic coverage as the name implies.  By assumption it's going to be paid for by documented citizens, who will then benefit from lower costs.  Will it be given to those who are just here?  That has not been worked out, and will be a secondary debate.  And it can be addressed like it is in Canada.  When I was living there and needed a doctor, I paid out of pocket about what I would pay in the US.  There was no free ride for undocumented visitors not paying into the system.

Offline SGOS

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Pro-Universal Healthcare, pro-Immigration rights (and in favour of the abolition of ICE), pro-government backed work programs... and she won in America (okay, in New York)... fuck yes.
This is interesting, but would not happen in most of the country.  It might be part of a reading that predicts a small shift toward socialism in the US, or it might be an anomaly causing unwarranted optimism in the left.  I think it's great, but I'm not running out to by US Treasury Bills just yet.

Online Baruch

All politics is local.  One precinct doesn't an election make.  One congressional district doesn't make a congressional majority.

Obama and the 2010 Congress health plan ... he signed it, so it has his name on it.  He screwed you.  Like any good politician would.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 06:18:25 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Shiranu

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Only the rich can come and go as they please?
That is not what socialism is about!

How many rich people sneak in to the USA from the south in the dead of night wanting to buy a house and pay taxes?












We are the wealthiest nation on earth. We can afford to help refugees (and our own) if we wanted to. It might mean some people won't be able to afford their fifth yacht or private plane, but that is a more than fair trade.
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