Author Topic: People From Dictatorships Thoughts on America  (Read 185 times)

Offline Shiranu

People From Dictatorships Thoughts on America
« on: June 26, 2018, 05:25:34 PM »

This tweet I read earlier today really got me to thinking; I have heard several people from ex-dictatorships, current dictatorships and whom's families fled dictatorships comparing Trump's presidency to where they come from and have always been somewhat skeptical of them.

While I certainly believe Trump's presidency has been amongst the worst in American history, and certainly the worst in modern history, I don't necessarily think he is a dictator; he will, after all, be voted out in either 2 years or reach his term limit, whereas dictators generally serve for life. And the political violence is not even remotely at the level you would see in a dictator state.

That said... I think there is alot of merit to what these people say as well, and it's generally wise to listen to people who have firsthand experience of a subject, even if you don't agree with everything they say. I think in Trump there are alot of makings of a dictatorship, and that should concern everyone left, right, and centre. We shouldn't think that just because we are America we are somehow safe from these things becoming a reality for us as well. No country is infallible.


This was just the most recent one I have seen, but there are boatloads of people who fled dictatorships who say the same (and, I would assume, plenty who would say otherwise... hence the reason I said you might not always agree with them). I think it would be wise to listen to them.

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Quote
[/size][size=1.45rem]Speaking as someone born in the last years of a dictatorship, you Americans are already several steps in one.[/size]



Ferdinand Marcos' greatest trick was convincing people all protesters were communist animals, so when they went missing, few cared. Even after bodies were discovered.


These white people & journalists talking about being civil? These were the rich people, the Fil-Chinese, the mestizos in the Philippines who knew they won't be affected by many of Marcos' policies, and therefore could ignore them even as the killings started.


Marcos was also adept at convincing regular Filipinos that "as long as you don't commit crimes I won't come for you. I'm only getting rid of the 'filth'." He lied, of course. He jailed his most vocal opponents, people whose businesses he wanted to confiscate for his use.


But Filipinos have always been susceptible to strongman personality cults, just like your Republicans.(Yeah don't @ me on this one, Repubs still singing Reagan's praises despite the fact he was FRIENDS with Marcos and helped him retain power, making it 1000x worse for us.)


White people, journalists who insist on civility- you seem to think civility is a common ground you share with opponents like Trump et al. Here's a clue - whenever you offer these assholes middle ground, they will invade that space & then claim you never gave them ground at all.


Marcos kept pushing. First it was all protesters were communists. All student protesters. Then it was the free press. Then it was the people with businesses he coveted. And then it was anyone who looked at Imelda Marcos or his daughter, Imee, wrong. Arrested, raped, murdered.


And every step of the way there were the same kind of fuckwits here twittering on about how people should be civil, SURELY Marcos wouldn't go that far, the economy is flourishing surely it can't be THAT bad."It didn't happen to ME, so it must not be bad." up till Martial Law.


White people asking for performative civility do the same thing they did, for the same reason - they're afraid. You've never been raised to fear discrimination or prejudice against a system that has always been built in your favor for centuries.


Your argument for civility is a terrified lashing out against an uncertain future that your ancestors / fellow white people have subjected people of color to for centuries. It's built in POC culture to learn how to cope with this. You've had none, because you've never needed to.


Because regardless of whether you want it or not, status quo benefits white people best. In any upheaval, white people have the least casualties. That makes them the last demographic wanting to rock the boat, even if the boat is full of Nazis steering it straight into Auschwitz.


Because you know Auschwitz isn't going to be for you. It's gonna be Auschwitz for a lot of people in that same boat you're on, but you know that's not for you. And that's why you can afford to be compliant.


And here's the kicker: YOU KNOW THEY'RE NOT CIVIL. That's why it's the liberals you keep appealing to for decorum and politeness. You know you're not going to get most Trumpsters on board anything amounting to basic decency.


So you shift the goalposts, and you enable the gaslighting, even if inadvertently. "Maybe if YOU hadn't been so rude they wouldn't have done that."Bullshit. You KNOW they'll do it anyway because again, your goddamn status quo.


People invested in putting kids in cages don't want your civility. They don't want you to extend them the same courtesy they never had - and never wanted - from you. What they want is for you to retreat.


And every ground you grudgingly give, hoping that they'll construe that as some good faith on your part, is only an incentive for them to push harder until you have no ground left.Then they're going to tell you they've owned the land all along.


"So much for the tolerant left." This is why they say this all the fucking time. This is the bait they expect you to fall for. Your required "tolerance" for the things they do, even as they do the exact opposite to you.


The first requirement when approaching any discussion with civility is that both sides must come to the table with it. The side that advocates putting kids in cages and are now thinking of stripping citizenship from legal green card holders, never had that to begin with.


Now: if you are REALLY invested in still keeping civil after this, there are countless unaffiliated Red Hen places in the US (+one in Canada) being egged, getting death threats, etc. Try discussing "civility" with those people this time, & see how well that works out for you.


I've Got Love, Fuck Your Money.

"Intellectualization creates a gap or lack of rapport between you and your life. You may think about things so much that you get into the state where you are eating the menu instead of the dinner." -Alan Watts

Offline Baruch

Re: People From Dictatorships Thoughts on America
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2018, 08:01:46 PM »
Comparing Red Hen to Auschwitz?  How Gentile can you get ;-(

D party loves the kind of dictatorship Robespierre or Lenin ran.  They just don't like the German kind.  Prejudice?

The Left hates protestors and customer discrimination, when it hits them?  Do tell ...

Y'all should get right on down to Charlestown harbor and fire on Ft Sumpter ... that will show Republicans what you stand for ;-))
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 08:03:18 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Cavebear

Re: People From Dictatorships Thoughts on America
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2018, 03:07:59 AM »
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This tweet I read earlier today really got me to thinking; I have heard several people from ex-dictatorships, current dictatorships and whom's families fled dictatorships comparing Trump's presidency to where they come from and have always been somewhat skeptical of them.

While I certainly believe Trump's presidency has been amongst the worst in American history, and certainly the worst in modern history, I don't necessarily think he is a dictator; he will, after all, be voted out in either 2 years or reach his term limit, whereas dictators generally serve for life. And the political violence is not even remotely at the level you would see in a dictator state.

That said... I think there is alot of merit to what these people say as well, and it's generally wise to listen to people who have firsthand experience of a subject, even if you don't agree with everything they say. I think in Trump there are alot of makings of a dictatorship, and that should concern everyone left, right, and centre. We shouldn't think that just because we are America we are somehow safe from these things becoming a reality for us as well. No country is infallible.


This was just the most recent one I have seen, but there are boatloads of people who fled dictatorships who say the same (and, I would assume, plenty who would say otherwise... hence the reason I said you might not always agree with them). I think it would be wise to listen to them.

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I think you are underestimating Trump's damage to US democracy.  That Trump is LESS an autocrat now than others are in some places is not very encouraging.  The US used to be a shining spot of hope (in spite of all its faults).  No where is perfect, but some places are better than others by design, history, and intent.

If the US fails in democracy, what is left?  The only other possible bastion is the EU and it is having some really serious problems of its own. 

We need to rebuild the basic US/Europe democracy tradition or we are headed for a new Age Of Dictatorship.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: People From Dictatorships Thoughts on America
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2018, 03:42:17 AM »
Europe isn't democratic.  England = monarchy.  EU = communism

US isn't democratic.  Ds - oligarchy, Rs - oligarchy

If Trump is all powerful, then he is at least a demi-god, and atheism is over.
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Offline Munch

Re: People From Dictatorships Thoughts on America
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2018, 06:11:06 AM »
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Europe isn't democratic.  England = monarchy.  EU = communism

US isn't democratic.  Ds - oligarchy, Rs - oligarchy

If Trump is all powerful, then he is at least a demi-god, and atheism is over.

To be fair we're not ruled by monarchy these days, or by theocracy, since we couldn't have a secular voting system if we were

Then again, our EU master's who we didn't have say in who is in power does make it quite like ye old days of the monarchy
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 06:13:29 AM by Munch »

Offline Cavebear

Re: People From Dictatorships Thoughts on America
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2018, 06:30:31 AM »
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To be fair we're not ruled by monarchy these days, or by theocracy, since we couldn't have a secular voting system if we were

Then again, our EU master's who we didn't have say in who is in power does make it quite like ye old days of the monarchy

The struggles of the EU remind me of our 1860s Civil War days fighting about State Rights vs Federalism.  Even the Northern States fought against a strong unified Federal Govt as the EU nations are fighting now.  They don't want to surrender local rights and allow a strong centralized Govt. 

But it is the same fight.  Good luck on all of that.  We made a choice (by force) here.  And we are what we are because of that.  If the EU wants to gain the same advantages, they might have to face the same question.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: People From Dictatorships Thoughts on America
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2018, 07:11:23 AM »
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The struggles of the EU remind me of our 1860s Civil War days fighting about State Rights vs Federalism.  Even the Northern States fought against a strong unified Federal Govt as the EU nations are fighting now.  They don't want to surrender local rights and allow a strong centralized Govt. 

But it is the same fight.  Good luck on all of that.  We made a choice (by force) here.  And we are what we are because of that.  If the EU wants to gain the same advantages, they might have to face the same question.

Same question as 1914 ... demographically and economically, a united Europe calls Berlin its capital.  How many millions died to prevent that?
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Offline Munch

Re: People From Dictatorships Thoughts on America
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2018, 08:03:12 AM »
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Same question as 1914 ... demographically and economically, a united Europe calls Berlin its capital.  How many millions died to prevent that?

doesn't that make it a question of status and whos in charge more. I get the implications, the nazis tried to take over europe, who came from germany. People fought and died to prevent that from happening, and stopped the nazis. Then years later brussels creates the EU and folds all countries into one governed by its rules and regulations.
I see the point but its about as different as north and south korea, two completely different systems and groups but both the same type of people.

Re: People From Dictatorships Thoughts on America
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2018, 08:05:15 AM »
Poll: Almost a third of US voters think a second civil war is coming soon

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A war may be brewing within the United States, almost a third of voters say in a poll released Wednesday.

Amid widespread political polarization on issues like immigration and recent public confrontations of Trump administration officials, 31 percent of probable U.S. voters surveyed said they think "it's likely that the United States will experience a second civil war sometime in the next five years."

Democrats at 37 percent were slightly more fearful of a second civil war than Republicans at 32 percent, the poll from Rasmussen Reports found.
While more than half thought it was unlikely the USA would see a second civil war soon, 59 percent of voters were still concerned that opponents of President Donald Trump's policies would resort to violence.

During former President Barack Obama's second year in office, a similar 53% of voters thought those who did not support his policies would turn to violence, according to Rasmussen.

Wednesday's poll also found 53 percent of voters were worried that those critical of the news media's Trump coverage would become violent. ...



I'm not sure what people who believe this think a second US civil war would look like. Civil unrest and domestic violence aren't the same as civil war. Interesting that whether the president is Obama or Trump the same number of people are fearful of civil unrest and violence.
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

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Offline Cavebear

Re: People From Dictatorships Thoughts on America
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2018, 08:23:18 AM »
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Poll: Almost a third of US voters think a second civil war is coming soon

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

A war may be brewing within the United States, almost a third of voters say in a poll released Wednesday.

Amid widespread political polarization on issues like immigration and recent public confrontations of Trump administration officials, 31 percent of probable U.S. voters surveyed said they think "it's likely that the United States will experience a second civil war sometime in the next five years."

Democrats at 37 percent were slightly more fearful of a second civil war than Republicans at 32 percent, the poll from Rasmussen Reports found.
While more than half thought it was unlikely the USA would see a second civil war soon, 59 percent of voters were still concerned that opponents of President Donald Trump's policies would resort to violence.

During former President Barack Obama's second year in office, a similar 53% of voters thought those who did not support his policies would turn to violence, according to Rasmussen.

Wednesday's poll also found 53 percent of voters were worried that those critical of the news media's Trump coverage would become violent. ...



I'm not sure what people who believe this think a second US civil war would look like. Civil unrest and domestic violence aren't the same as civil war. Interesting that whether the president is Obama or Trump the same number of people are fearful of civil unrest and violence.

I don't think there will be a Civil war with military battles like in the 1860s, but I think the US is pulling apart.  There will be an East US, a West US, and a Central US.  Probably not in my lifetime, thankfully.  Beyond that, I won't be around to care.  But unless some politics arise to re-collect us, that's how it looks to me.

Historically, some nations fail, some divide.  No nation lasts forever.

We have a choice right now.  We can deny Trump the autocracy he wants or fail to act and let it happen.  We can recreate a Center or not.  It wouldn't be the first time a democracy failed.  Or survived.  I'm hoping for survival, but it takes a lot of people to make it happen.

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: People From Dictatorships Thoughts on America
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2018, 12:30:26 PM »
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doesn't that make it a question of status and whos in charge more. I get the implications, the nazis tried to take over europe, who came from germany. People fought and died to prevent that from happening, and stopped the nazis. Then years later brussels creates the EU and folds all countries into one governed by its rules and regulations.
I see the point but its about as different as north and south korea, two completely different systems and groups but both the same type of people.

British Cabinet, 1914 and before ... "Germany must be stopped at all costs".

No, just because the Germans went nuts, doesn't mean that pre-Nazi they were friendly, or post-Nazi aren't devious.  They are mercantilist right now, S Europe in general suffers because of market and financial manipulation.  London was OK with this, as long as Frankfurt doesn't become dominant in finance.  With Brexit, Deutche Bank can't wait to freeze out the Bank of England.

Once Germany unified in 1871, the rest of Europe was just zits on the German hiney.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 12:32:25 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Baruch

Re: People From Dictatorships Thoughts on America
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2018, 12:34:30 PM »
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I don't think there will be a Civil war with military battles like in the 1860s, but I think the US is pulling apart.  There will be an East US, a West US, and a Central US.  Probably not in my lifetime, thankfully.  Beyond that, I won't be around to care.  But unless some politics arise to re-collect us, that's how it looks to me.

Historically, some nations fail, some divide.  No nation lasts forever.

We have a choice right now.  We can deny Trump the autocracy he wants or fail to act and let it happen.  We can recreate a Center or not.  It wouldn't be the first time a democracy failed.  Or survived.  I'm hoping for survival, but it takes a lot of people to make it happen.

Or we can grant the D party the one party Communist/Capitalism they have been trying to build.  Democracy failed long ago.  It became endangered in 1787 and extinct in 1865.  Not that it was necessary.  Being a republic was the thing, not being a democracy.  Just ask John D Rockefeller and the other robber barons of the Gilded Age.

A race war of course is planned for the US ... George Soros demands it.  We came very close to civil war in the 1960s ... maybe that would have been a better time to do it.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 12:36:08 PM by Baruch »
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