Author Topic: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider  (Read 1517 times)

Offline SGOS

Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« on: June 26, 2018, 08:04:59 AM »
In the summer of 1964 I was standing at 11,000+ feet on Montana's Beartooth Plateau with my friend, Tom.  We were on our way to the top of the highest peak in the State, and having a short discussion about God.  Tom was a  Catholic, but thought the whole religion thing was nonsense.  I was on the fence, and grappling with absurdities and contradictions of Biblical claims.  We were actually discussing the likelihood of the existence of God.

Tom said, "If God would send you to Hell and torture you for eternity because you <insert a sin here.  I can't remember what sin he used>, then God is Fucked."

I remember cringing at the vulgar blasphemy.  It may have been a duck, rather than a cringe, as I unexpectedly anticipated a lightning bolt to strike us on the elevated and exposed plateau.  But nothing happened, and Tom's attempt at logic did not convince me of anything, because maybe God did exist, and maybe he was that fucked.  In spite of the various descriptions of the goodness of God, usually offered by men in the know, the Bible described a being that would certainly qualify as fucked, a being that a normal person would never seek out as a friend unless he was a masochist.

Just something I will always remember, along with the startling reflex cringe I experienced in anticipation of immediate punishment.

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2018, 09:10:30 AM »
Your emotional reaction to the blashemy was real. You really felt you would be punished and this displays that you were a frank believer-Once upon a time- when it comes to me, i never felt in this way but somestimes i prayed to be awarded for my prayers. I was muslim and whenever i wish something come into existence in my life, i used to go to mosque. But i think i was selfish. I didnt use to go regularly, just whenever i need and want something.

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2018, 10:00:27 AM »
 
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Just something I will always remember, along with the startling reflex cringe I experienced in anticipation of immediate punishment.

I can get similar anxiety when someone defies misfortune. "I'll be fine. What could possibly go wrong?"
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

― Pema Chödrön

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2018, 10:22:28 AM »
When Jesus comes a-knockin', you'd better open that door. Otherwise he'll knock that door down and drag you into a pit of eternal pain, the likes of which you can't even imagine and can't hope to ever escape. Because he loves you.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2018, 10:34:47 AM »
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When Jesus comes a-knockin', you'd better open that door. Otherwise he'll knock that door down and drag you into a pit of eternal pain, the likes of which you can't even imagine and can't hope to ever escape. Because he loves you.

Juri: It's these two ... Grace Jones-lookin' chicks. Should I let them in?
N'Jobu: They won't knock again.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline trdsf

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2018, 11:17:21 AM »
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I can get similar anxiety when someone defies misfortune. "I'll be fine. What could possibly go wrong?"
That's a really common one.  I still struggle with it; my bike seat always gets two pats after I mount it on the rack on front of the bus and I tell myself that it's just to make sure it's seated properly in the mount but I know better, it's to make *me* feel more secure.

My first good lesson in not worrying about it was in college when I was still nominally Christian (drifting towards Deism) when, during a thunderstorm, one of my frat brothers climbed out on the roof of the frat house and with a beer in one hand and a bong in the other, sat there in the downpour yelling "I DARE YOU!!"
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Online Baruch

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2018, 12:57:04 PM »
Even inanimate nature shouldn't be defied, if you understand Murphy's Law.  Having been an engineer and a programmer, I can verify to y'all that the Irish are the chosen people, and Murphy is the one true god.
שלום

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2018, 01:16:51 PM »
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I was muslim and whenever i wish something come into existence in my life, i used to go to mosque. But i think i was selfish. I didnt use to go regularly, just whenever i need and want something.
So, basically a "fair-weather theist"? I've known many of those, who really only think about God when they need or desire something they either won't or cant work to get for themselves. They treat God as a cosmic bell-boy who brings them stuff when they ring room service. But, as Harry Emerson Fosdick said, "God is not a cosmic bellboy for whom we can press a button to get things."
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“Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”
Miyamoto Musashi

Offline Hydra009

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2018, 07:24:33 PM »
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I can get similar anxiety when someone defies misfortune. "I'll be fine. What could possibly go wrong?"
I do this intentionally all the time.  Most of my co-workers are superstitious and think that me saying things like that will somehow bring about misfortune but they're hazy on how.  The truth of course is that me moving air around with my throat is unrelated to any misfortune.  There's no causal connection.

So pet all the black cats you want and refuse to live your life by the dictates of fools.  It's the only way to advance as a society.

Offline aitm

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2018, 07:34:17 PM »
We often pretend to think that those first 14 ish years of mental manipulation by our parents and culture can easily be erased with time.  I have no issues talking to my truck as I hear a strange noise. Now typically considered bad luck things such as ladders and cats et al, I tend to intentionally break for the fuck of it.  We all have ways of dealing with various degrees of "stress" or mis-fortune.....it's when we starting bragging about on it that it gets a bit silly.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Online Baruch

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2018, 07:58:49 PM »
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So, basically a "fair-weather theist"? I've known many of those, who really only think about God when they need or desire something they either won't or cant work to get for themselves. They treat God as a cosmic bell-boy who brings them stuff when they ring room service. But, as Harry Emerson Fosdick said, "God is not a cosmic bellboy for whom we can press a button to get things."

Allah promises Muslims ... success in this life, and 72 perpetual virgin orgy in the hereafter.  Not exactly humanitarian.  Kind of like capitalism with extras.
שלום

Online Baruch

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2018, 07:59:52 PM »
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I do this intentionally all the time.  Most of my co-workers are superstitious and think that me saying things like that will somehow bring about misfortune but they're hazy on how.  The truth of course is that me moving air around with my throat is unrelated to any misfortune.  There's no causal connection.

So pet all the black cats you want and refuse to live your life by the dictates of fools.  It's the only way to advance as a society.

My oldest cat is black, and has already gone thru three lives ... pretty lucky.
שלום

Offline SGOS

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2018, 08:17:40 PM »
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We often pretend to think that those first 14 ish years of mental manipulation by our parents and culture can easily be erased with time.  I have no issues talking to my truck as I hear a strange noise. Now typically considered bad luck things such as ladders and cats et al, I tend to intentionally break for the fuck of it.  We all have ways of dealing with various degrees of "stress" or mis-fortune.....it's when we starting bragging about on it that it gets a bit silly.
I know how instilled those early teachings can be.  Long after I realized I did not intellectually believe, and had no logical reasons to do so, I still had fears of Hell.  I likened that stage of my development to having emptied the trash, but for years after, I still had maggots and rotting matter clinging to the insides of the can.

Online Baruch

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2018, 08:26:54 PM »
You are dissing an important part of the ecology, you intolerant ape!
שלום

Offline SGOS

Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2018, 09:16:13 PM »
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So, basically a "fair-weather theist"? I've known many of those, who really only think about God when they need or desire something they either won't or cant work to get for themselves. They treat God as a cosmic bell-boy who brings them stuff when they ring room service. But, as Harry Emerson Fosdick said, "God is not a cosmic bellboy for whom we can press a button to get things."
John Oliver addresses this one: Televangelists asking you to send money, and God will repay you tenfold, and in actual dollars, not some bullshit like happiness or bliss, but in actual dollars.

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