Colorado Gay Wedding Cake Case: Supreme Court Rules in Favour of Discrimination

[pr126]

I believe there is some anti Christian bias. No surprises there.

However, If you had certain beliefs, not necessarily religious and you asked to do something against your principles, would you refuse to do it?

[Baruch]

In what world you live to believe that is so?

Tyranny exists in many places, including the US.  The government mandates and prohibits.  To those opposed to those mandates or prohibitions, it looks like tyranny.  And the only motivation for government action, is political.  There is no humanitarian motivation.

[Baruch]

"Protected classes" are protected because of historical cultural reasons that left them unfairly treated.  Is there nothing in your ancestry that was once treated unfairly?  Do you hate the Statue Of Liberty?

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

My native American friends hate it.  How White are you?

[Baruch]

aitm - "They respected that I "accepted and supported" their rights or fight for rights, but at the same time, am not willing to become part of the culture."

That is the paranoia of conservatives ... that the whole point of any political movement, is to gain not just legalization, but mandate.  To force people at the end of a bayonet to participate.  That is what Jordan Peterson was specifically complaining about 2 years ago in regard to the mandating of pronouns in Canada.

So do D-party folks want to force everyone to join their party?  Do R-party folks?  Unfortunately political action makes it plausible (not right) that gay people want to force everyone into gay sex practices.  Of course it isn't true.  But with identity politics being added ... yes the D/R party folks do want a one party state.  But in reality, that would mean the end of deviance, including gay people etc.  That is what totalitarian government means.

[Baruch]

I believe there is some anti Christian bias. No surprises there.

However, If you had certain beliefs, not necessarily religious and you asked to do something against your principles, would you refuse to do it?

If my boss asks me to act against my principles ... we have a discussion.  If we can't reach agreement, I can always resign.  If the government as such asks me to act against my principles (say I am a pacifist being drafted) ... we can have a discussion about "conscientious objector".  If we can't reach agreement, I can always go to jail.

[SGOS]

If I may make an observation, - I know it will be shot down in flames but here it goes.

If the couple went to a Muslim bakery and refused custom, there would be no media circus, courts, and this thread would not exist.

No one would know or care.

Not now in the USA, especially since the current resolution favors religion, and therefore has to favor Islam.  But the bigger reason that people wouldn't care is that Islam is not a political force in the US.  It's viewed as a religion only.  The current test case is more political in nature because Christianity is a political force that opposes secularism.  There's an issue there that doesn't currently exist with Islam.  It may in the future, but it is not now for most Americans.

[pr126]

There's an issue there that doesn't currently exist with Islam.

Wrong.
Islam is a geopolitical ideology, with a thin veneer of religiosity to provide cohesion among believers.

See Political Islam.

Always has been, always will be. Its core mandate is conquest, subjugation, by any means necessary.
Jihad, Dawa, Deception.
It can be found in the Quran, Hadiths, Sharia, the Islamic law.



You may not have noticed that Christians are helping Islam.
The Pope is advocating Muslim migration to Europe. 
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/09/22/pope-francis-strongly-criticises-catholics-who-refuse-to-accept-migrants/

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/11/24/pope-immigrants-not-threat-opportunity-build-peace/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-chile/shutting-out-immigrants-is-not-christian-pope-says-idUSKBN1F72EU

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/21/pope-francis-prioritise-migrants-dignity-over-national-security

https://www.ncronline.org/news/people/missouri-christian-wears-hijab-solidarity

https://voiceofeurope.com/2018/05/german-priest-wears-islamic-headscarf-in-protest-against-anti-immigration-party-afd/#.WwRsGtGBxqE.twitter

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/24/catholic-church-collects-16-billion-in-us-contract/

[SGOS]

Wrong.
Islam is a geopolitical ideology, with a thin veneer of religiosity to provide cohesion among believers.
Always has been, always will be. Its core mandate is conquest, subjugation, by any means necessary.
You may not have noticed that Christians are helping Islam.
The Pope is advocating Muslim migration to Europe. 

I agree that Islam is a political ideology.  I was just pointing out that most people in the USA see it as a religion.  And whatever endpoint Islam ideally envisions for the US is not seen as a threat.  I think the US believes that American style Democracy is seductive enough to convert Muslims into desiring a secular society, even though that effort seems to have failed in Iraq.

We are not yet experiencing the type of social upheaval that is happening in Europe, and I think that most people believe it can't happen here.

Some Christians do want to help Islam, and then to Christianize it no doubt.

[Unbeliever]

People of all the Abrahamic religions believe they're doing God's will, and that makes them all dangerous as hell.

[Mermaid]

People of all the Abrahamic religions believe they're doing God's will, and that makes them all dangerous as hell.

How does this same principle not apply to Christians?

[Baruch]

I agree that Islam is a political ideology.  I was just pointing out that most people in the USA see it as a religion.  And whatever endpoint Islam ideally envisions for the US is not seen as a threat.  I think the US believes that American style Democracy is seductive enough to convert Muslims into desiring a secular society, even though that effort seems to have failed in Iraq.

We are not yet experiencing the type of social upheaval that is happening in Europe, and I think that most people believe it can't happen here.

Some Christians do want to help Islam, and then to Christianize it no doubt.

There are more Arab Muslims in Canada, most of the US Muslims are African-American.  Originally part of the cult of Nation of Islam, the majority have defected to a nominal Islam with Malcolm X as its prophet, not Louis Farrakhan.  Such Muslims are American first.  Many other Muslims who have come to the US came as part of the H1B (though many more Hindus than Muslims) and these are all upper-caste people.  Canada naturally is much closer in culture, even Islam, to Britain.  There is huge influence of Islam in London, because of the influence of former Empire subjects, and petro-Arabs.

Of course Americans, including some Christians, are naive and parochial.  We are not worldly like the Europeans.  Some American Christians are violently pro-Israel ... so only see Muslims in terms of Apocalypse, not future conversion.  As a religion, Islam is every bit as sophisticated as Christianity or Judaism ... so there is no reason to expect many Muslims will convert out, even if living in the West.  Americans have a unique religious viewpoint, that is strange even to Canadians (US has no established religion, but freedom on religious practice).

For now, the US views Islam as a tool in the struggle for world hegemony, to destroy its opponents (Russia, China, India) and as tools to disrupt its allies (Europe).

[Baruch]

How does this same principle not apply to Christians?

The Catholic Church controls half of the Christians, over 1 billion people.  This is not trivial.  I don't think that the United Methodists are much of a threat.

Originally in classical Chinese culture, the Emperor was seen as having a mandate over life in China, but that has never been a threat to the US or Europe, and ended over 100 years ago.  There is no comparable authority for India since the destruction of the Mughal Empire in the 18th century.  Similarly in Turkish lands since the destruction of their empire from 1798 to 1918.  The Shiites of Iran are only a threat to Israel, not the US.

It is significant the the current Pope has endorsed Globalism.  The papacy probably lost its independence when Pope John-Paul I died, suddenly back in 1978.

[SGOS]

How does this same principle not apply to Christians?

I think it does apply to Christians, very much so.  Americans tend to look at Christianity as civilized and not dangerous, but Christian motives always seek control over others.  I consider this dangerous, because I see no end to them ever being satisfied.  Currently, there are enough secularly minded people to fight back.  Christians don't like that.  They want more power.  Power mongers are never a good thing, and with their presence, everyone's freedoms are always at risk.

[Unbeliever]

How does this same principle not apply to Christians?

Christianity is an Abrahamic religion.

[aitm]

That is the paranoia of conservatives ... that the whole point of any political movement, is to gain not just legalization, but mandate. 

Unfortunately this is not just a conservative paranoia because it is a human trait, a evolutionary one perhaps to push slowly,,, little by little...the old saying "give them an inch and they will take a mile" is well rooted in human behavior of every stripe and ideology. It is that way because it is the most successful way to gain. Piece by piece...inch by inch. Everyone knows it, everyone understands it. This is why every stigma, every prejudice is rooted mostly in semi-truths. You don't get to fuck the girl next door the first time you meet her......first you have to say, "Hi"