Author Topic: Right To Try  (Read 1099 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Right To Try
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2018, 06:14:56 AM »
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But what you are also supporting is a situation where a gigantic overnight increase in the price of a 62-year-old drug that is the standard of care for treating a life-threatening parasitic infection (a drug called Daraprim), was acquired in August by Turing Pharmaceuticals, a start-up run by a former hedge fund manager. Turing immediately raised the price to $750 a tablet from $13.50, bringing the annual cost of treatment for some patients to hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Please explain how the development costs of that drug justified the price increase...

Hypothetical ... the original lower price was a typo?  But unless the entire cost accounting is given, all one can have is a hypothesis.  Otherwise one only has an ad hominem.

Pricing in risk and market leverage is more dicey.
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Offline Johan

Re: Right To Try
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2018, 07:06:18 AM »
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But what you are also supporting is a situation where a gigantic overnight increase in the price of a 62-year-old drug that is the standard of care for treating a life-threatening parasitic infection (a drug called Daraprim), was acquired in August by Turing Pharmaceuticals, a start-up run by a former hedge fund manager. Turing immediately raised the price to $750 a tablet from $13.50, bringing the annual cost of treatment for some patients to hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Please explain how the development costs of that drug justified the price increase...
Development costs obviously have nothing to do with that price increase. And show me specifically where you think I said I supported that specific case because I can assure you I do not.

You're talking about one asshole who owns one company and isn't shy about price gouging. Just because that exists doesn't mean I'm against the entire industry. And just because that one guy/company exists does not change anything having to do the process/costs of development.

If you want new drugs, they have to go through the government mandated approval process. And that is expensive but also necessary. And in many cases, giving your as yet to be approved experimental compounds to just anyone who asks can really fuck up the process and put the entire project at risk.

And here's the other thing no one has mentioned. No insurance company on the planet will pay for experimental drugs nor will they pay for any care required as a result of negative side effects from the use of experimental drugs. So right to try gives every American that can afford to pay for their own health care, i.e. the wealthy, the right to try any experimental drug they want so long as the manufacturer agrees to provide it for them, i.e. in certain select cases. Like I said, Trump did a great thing expect he didn't really do anything at all. And honestly I think we're all better off any day that Trump does nothing at all.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Offline Cavebear

Re: Right To Try
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2018, 07:18:48 AM »
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Development costs obviously have nothing to do with that price increase. And show me specifically where you think I said I supported that specific case because I can assure you I do not.

You're talking about one asshole who owns one company and isn't shy about price gouging. Just because that exists doesn't mean I'm against the entire industry. And just because that one guy/company exists does not change anything having to do the process/costs of development.

If you want new drugs, they have to go through the government mandated approval process. And that is expensive but also necessary. And in many cases, giving your as yet to be approved experimental compounds to just anyone who asks can really fuck up the process and put the entire project at risk.

And here's the other thing no one has mentioned. No insurance company on the planet will pay for experimental drugs nor will they pay for any care required as a result of negative side effects from the use of experimental drugs. So right to try gives every American that can afford to pay for their own health care, i.e. the wealthy, the right to try any experimental drug they want so long as the manufacturer agrees to provide it for them, i.e. in certain select cases. Like I said, Trump did a great thing expect he didn't really do anything at all. And honestly I think we're all better off any day that Trump does nothing at all.

You offerred a case explaining why drug costs go up; I offerred one that your explanation does not explain.  So explain that one, if you can.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Johan

Re: Right To Try
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2018, 01:20:41 PM »
1. Who claimed that drug costs go up for only one reason? I certainly didn't.
2. I did not offer a case to explain why drug costs go up. I offered a case for why a drug manufacturer might not want to make their in-development products available to anyone who asks. If you took that as an explanation for the one and only reason why drug prices increase, that was your mistake not mine.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Offline Cavebear

Re: Right To Try
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2018, 02:00:58 PM »
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1. Who claimed that drug costs go up for only one reason? I certainly didn't.
2. I did not offer a case to explain why drug costs go up. I offered a case for why a drug manufacturer might not want to make their in-development products available to anyone who asks. If you took that as an explanation for the one and only reason why drug prices increase, that was your mistake not mine.

Your entire past 2 posts on this thread was about why drug prices are high.  Don't play the aggrieved party.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Johan

Re: Right To Try
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2018, 05:10:54 PM »
I think you're mistaken. I commented on the process of getting new medications approved for sale.

To wit:
Quote
What I think you're misunderstanding then is exactly how the process of getting a drug approved for market works
That is exactly what I wrote. Therefore everything I wrote after that sentence described... wait for it.... wait for it.... Everything the followed after was meant to describe the process of getting new medications approved. I did discuss the high costs involved because, as it turns out, costs are often a factor in getting new medications approved.

I'm sorry that you misunderstood what I wrote, but I absolutely did not claim to be explaining any of the potential many reasons why drug prices are what they are. Nor would I care to.

I believe you used the term 'big pharma' a few posts back. Its been my experience that anyone who uses that term tends to buy into the conspiracy theory that any and all involved with paramedicals are evil crooks who only intend to rip off the sick and keep them poor. I do not see any point in discussing conspiracy theory with anyone foolish enough to believe it.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Offline Cavebear

Re: Right To Try
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2018, 05:57:45 PM »
Johan:  "So lets say a manufacturer is developing a cancer drug for a certain type of cancer. And lets say their initial lab testing suggested it to be 90% effective on individuals meeting a certain profile but only 50% on individuals who did not meet that profile. You would want to conduct all your efficacy study field trials on individuals who met the 90% profile and maximize your chances of getting good data. So now right to try comes along and suddenly every Tom Dick and Harry wants to try your new formula. If you give it all of them, you're bound to get lots of individuals who don't fall into your 90% profile and that's going to lower your overall efficacy results. Which could mean your drug doesn't get approved for anyone or it could mean the FDA decides it wants a shit ton more testing first which could add years and millions of dollars to the development process.

Much cheaper for them to do all their testing on the group meets the 90% efficacy profile and get the drug approved and labelled for individuals meeting that profile. Get it out on the shelves and get revenue coming in from it. Then you take that revenue and go back and work on figuring out why its only 40% effective for people outside the profile and figuring out how to modify it so it can approved and labelled for everyone."

Cavebear:  There are all kinds of profit concerns and worries in there and you probably don't see them. What you see as cost concerns comes out to the consumer as profit you make because you try to manipulate the data to get a drug shoved through the FDA process and falsely advertised. 

I really do fully understand you think this gamesmanship is legitimate.  But you are looking at it as a "business case", not a legitimate drug cost-pricing situation.   The drug company is out to make huge profits on any new drug.  That is why effective but inexpensive drugs that are not profit centers get "orphaned" and vanish, or a company spin-off ratchets up the cost in speculation.

" You would want to conduct all your efficacy study field trials on individuals who met the 90% profile and maximize your chances of getting good data"...

"or it could mean the FDA decides it wants a shit ton more testing first which could add years and millions of dollars to the development process"...


Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Johan

Re: Right To Try
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2018, 05:59:46 PM »
'kay thanks bye.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Offline Baruch

Re: Right To Try
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2018, 06:12:02 PM »
Legitimate drug pricing?  Comrade Cavebear ... back to Siberia for giving out Soviet secret plan ... for reeducation.
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