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Voting VS Spending

Started by Xerographica, May 13, 2018, 12:28:01 PM

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Jason78

Quote from: Xerographica on May 27, 2018, 05:07:07 PM
Naturally we will all want to try the most highly ranked beer that we haven't already tried.  Will we love it?  If so, then we can help improve its ranking by making another donation. 

Let's see if this system works for us.  If it doesn't, then there won't be any point in debating whether it will work for the rest of the world. 

It's not worked so far has it?  Or lobbying would be a winning system.
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Xerographica

Quote from: Jason78 on May 30, 2018, 02:57:41 AM
It's not worked so far has it?  Or lobbying would be a winning system.


You blame the outcome on lobbying, I blame it on voting.  Voters and lobbyists both make government pudding.  You and I both agree that government pudding tastes like crap, but you blame lobbyists while I blame voters.  Here I am suggesting that we conduct an experiment.  Voters and spenders will each make their own atheist pudding.  Then we will see whose pudding tastes like crap.  But here you are saying that this experiment isn't useful because we already know that spending pudding tastes like crap. 

If we already know that spending pudding tastes like crap... then why do we use spending to rank food, computers and houses?  Why don't we use voting to rank these things? 

Baruch

Quote from: Xerographica on May 30, 2018, 06:55:12 PM
You blame the outcome on lobbying, I blame it on voting.  Voters and lobbyists both make government pudding.  You and I both agree that government pudding tastes like crap, but you blame lobbyists while I blame voters.  Here I am suggesting that we conduct an experiment.  Voters and spenders will each make their own atheist pudding.  Then we will see whose pudding tastes like crap.  But here you are saying that this experiment isn't useful because we already know that spending pudding tastes like crap. 

If we already know that spending pudding tastes like crap... then why do we use spending to rank food, computers and houses?  Why don't we use voting to rank these things?

That is what socialism does, two wolves and a sheep, deciding on what is for dinner.  Majority rule, can be simple majoritarian tyranny.  On the other hand, Money rule, can be simple plutocratic tyranny.  A poor workman blames his tools, or his Electoral College.  He never blames himself.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on May 29, 2018, 07:08:42 PM
As is your lack of self awareness.

That is an interesting statement.  In what way do I lack self-awareness?  I ask that because I am well aware of my limitations, but also aware of what I do know.  What brought you to your claim?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on May 31, 2018, 11:44:30 PM
That is an interesting statement.  In what way do I lack self-awareness?  I ask that because I am well aware of my limitations, but also aware of what I do know.  What brought you to your claim?

Topical, not universal.  Sometimes you don't read your own posts, or show a broader inconsistency between them.  Greater breadth and depth of self awareness is hard, we all have difficulty there.  And that doesn't even bring into this, other-awareness ... to what extent, over time, do I really get what you are about?  And given rhetoric is that even possible?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Sal1981

Quote from: Xerographica on May 30, 2018, 06:55:12 PM
You blame the outcome on lobbying, I blame it on voting.  Voters and lobbyists both make government pudding.  You and I both agree that government pudding tastes like crap, but you blame lobbyists while I blame voters.  Here I am suggesting that we conduct an experiment.  Voters and spenders will each make their own atheist pudding.  Then we will see whose pudding tastes like crap.  But here you are saying that this experiment isn't useful because we already know that spending pudding tastes like crap. 

If we already know that spending pudding tastes like crap... then why do we use spending to rank food, computers and houses?  Why don't we use voting to rank these things? 
Maybe because the view is that the former are fiscal concerns while the latter is political power.

I'm well aware there's an overlap, thanks to lobbying (it should be illegal, IMO) - but that doesn't mean that ol' Joe shouldn't be able to cast a vote in a ballot to have a voice in a democratic setting.

What you're advocating would simply make it more transparent who the plutocrats are, if I understand you correctly.

Cavebear

Quote from: Sal1981 on June 01, 2018, 04:51:21 AM
Maybe because the view is that the former are fiscal concerns while the latter is political power.

I'm well aware there's an overlap, thanks to lobbying (it should be illegal, IMO) - but that doesn't mean that ol' Joe shouldn't be able to cast a vote in a ballot to have a voice in a democratic setting.

What you're advocating would simply make it more transparent who the plutocrats are, if I understand you correctly.

Nicely said Sal...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Xerographica

Quote from: Sal1981 on June 01, 2018, 04:51:21 AM
Maybe because the view is that the former are fiscal concerns while the latter is political power.

I'm well aware there's an overlap, thanks to lobbying (it should be illegal, IMO) - but that doesn't mean that ol' Joe shouldn't be able to cast a vote in a ballot to have a voice in a democratic setting.

What you're advocating would simply make it more transparent who the plutocrats are, if I understand you correctly.

What I'm advocating is that we compare how differently things are ranked by voting and donating.  This will supply the information that you need to have a truly informed opinion.   So basically what I'm advocating is science. 

Let's use this forum to help determine how differently beers, books, and blogs (and other things that don't start with "b") are ranked by donating and voting.  We will firmly establish which ranking system is superior and, in the process of doing so, support this forum. 

Jason78

You don't need a truly informed opinion to drop a stack of cash on something you want to happen.    Thanks to people like Rupert Murdoch, we have evidence of the negative effects of that.
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Xerographica

Quote from: Jason78 on June 01, 2018, 01:33:28 PM
You don't need a truly informed opinion to drop a stack of cash on something you want to happen.    Thanks to people like Rupert Murdoch, we have evidence of the negative effects of that.

You seem pretty opposed to simply testing the difference between voting and donating.  Why?  Are you concerned that the results would contradict your belief?   

Baruch

Quote from: Xerographica on June 01, 2018, 04:37:06 PM
You seem pretty opposed to simply testing the difference between voting and donating.  Why?  Are you concerned that the results would contradict your belief?   

No, they doubt that a fair test can distinguish between success and failure, given the lack of definition.  You have to have an independent criteria, separate from voting or spending, to judge it.  Shall we have the Pope judge it?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Xerographica

Quote from: Baruch on June 01, 2018, 07:26:26 PM
No, they doubt that a fair test can distinguish between success and failure, given the lack of definition.  You have to have an independent criteria, separate from voting or spending, to judge it.  Shall we have the Pope judge it?

Do we need an independent criteria to judge whether poison oak is better than artichokes?  What about whether Einstein was better than Hitler? 

Baruch

Quote from: Xerographica on June 01, 2018, 08:43:20 PM
Do we need an independent criteria to judge whether poison oak is better than artichokes?  What about whether Einstein was better than Hitler?

Yes, given persistent human bias.  Otherwise you are just comparing biases.  Certainly there are people today would would judge Hitler better than Einstein.  And to a horticulturalist looking for new medicines, poison plants are a useful pharmacopeia.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Jason78

Quote from: Xerographica on June 01, 2018, 04:37:06 PM
You seem pretty opposed to simply testing the difference between voting and donating.  Why?  Are you concerned that the results would contradict your belief?   
I believe what you're proposing will be a kleptocracy.   Interests would be dictated by the whims of the rich.
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Jason78

Quote from: Xerographica on June 01, 2018, 08:43:20 PM
Do we need an independent criteria to judge whether poison oak is better than artichokes?  What about whether Einstein was better than Hitler? 

Better at what?   General Relativity or building up the german economy?
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato