Retarded Twitter

[Draconic Aiur]

I'm sure I've said it before, but acting like this is the age of offense is really dull.

Our parents generation lost their shit if they had to share a restaurant, school or bus with a black person... or if you look at them wrong, they want to see your manager, have you fired and also get half the store for free as reparation. To me, that is infinitely further thin skinned.than anything that happens now. The only difference is the internet makes smaller, stupider things more visible.

I would argue our generation is in fact quite possibly the least offended in human history overall.

Which parents? Not  my parents.

[sasuke]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Offense is not what these morons should be feeling. They should be feeling flattered. Now I know I shouldn't tell someone how to feel, and I will refrain from doing so as long as they don't tell me how to dress.

[Shiranu]

personally think the entire 'cultural appropriation' deal is silly.
I can't find a better word for it. Silly. Useless squable for the sake of squable.

{Edit: And I will restate it "again" that I feel that this instance is definitely being ridiculous on the people being outraged by it, since she seemed to legitimately be showing respect for the outfit and wearing it to a classy event as opposed to say a frat party or something.}

The problem is it always seems to be the people doing the appropriating (don't mean "you" as an individual but rather "you" as a cultural group) that say they don't have any problem with it, like it's their opinion on the issue that matters.

I think alot of what is called cultural appropriation, such as in this instance, is definitely blowing things way out of proportion, and ultimately it should be whomever's culture is being appropriated that decides if it's offensive or not and not white people.

But there is nothing silly about say Native Americans, who had 80% or more of their population (tens of millions of people) genocided by Europeans saying that it is in poor taste for Europeans to wear their sacred clothing as irreverent costumes or to look "exotic". There is nothing silly about Africans who had their continent raped and pillaged for hundreds of years by Europeans being annoyed by Europeans wearing their traditional clothing because it looks cool.

You can argue those examples happened hundred+ years ago, but the simple fact of the matter is that it both continues to this day (Native Americans are treated horribly in the United States, Africa is still a puppet continent for European and Asian powers, African Americans are still oppressed in many ways by the European majority) and thus is still an open wound.

The Italian example falls flat because while yes we were a minority in Europe and America and for a long time were considered "non-white", we still were one of the most powerful cultural groups in the world. Fuck, European culture is basically our creation... we can hardly be considered oppressed.



Ultimately the argument I see here seems to be, "I have the right to offend, so I should be offensive!" and it strikes me very much of the, "I have the right to my guns, so fuck you for wanting to take them!"... if someone finds your choice of borrowing from their culture offensive, then engage them in an honest conversation and explain why you are wearing the outfit. I guarantee you the overwhelming majority of people will not be offended when you offer a better reason than, "Oh, it makes me look so exotic!". But if you meet them with just pointless attitude and sass, then yes they will respond in kind. I honestly don't get this obsession with having the right to be a dick means you have to be a dick.

I have had people talk to me over some of the traditional African outfits I wear (several family friends are from Tanzania and Kenya and have sent me clothing, and I have family from the Caribbean as well who have sent me Rastafari-clothing)... no one has ever been offended that this scrawny white/brown guy is wearing ethnic clothing. The common response is that it's really cool to see someone showing appreciation of their culture (and if there is any way I could hook them up because they want clothing that reminds them of their roots as well).

It's all about context; wearing these outfits with respect for what they mean and represent generally is met with respect. Wearing them just to look "foreign" and "exotic", and people are going to be offended that they are being viewed as "others" and a fashion statement rather than as human beings with histories. I think that is a perfectly logical response.

And holy fuck, that went on alot longer than I meant, so my bad.

[Cavebear]

If some teen girl likes a style of dress, what is the harm?  Fashions flit around the globe like butterflies in jet cargo.  In college, I wore paisley shirts to dances and parties.  Later, I wore doubleknits slacks with minutia patterns.  After that, I wore 3-piece suits with a vest and a pocket-watch.  I wore bolo ties, thin ties, fat ties, colorful ties, subdued ties, and solid color ties at various times.  I wore engineer boots, a cloth vest and a cowboy hat for a while.  At one time I wore bell-bottomed pants and flounced sleeve shirts.  At another time, I wore tie dyed shirts and blue jeans.  In my later years in the office where I worked, I wore black.  Totally.  Black slacks, black oxford shirts, black sweater-vest, black socks, black shoes, black tie, and black blazer.  I was known as "The Man In Black", which the tech image I had at the time.

We have all tried different looks at different times.  And if you chose a look at 16 and kept it til you were 50 or so, that probably suggests some mental rigidity.

Criticizing someone for "liking a look" is not the same as "stealing a culture". 

My house is painted/decorated in black red and green.  Those are traditional colors of Africa.  I'm not trying to be African or adopt a culture.  I just happen to like those colors in combination.  But say I did.  Would liking those colors in combination mean I was trying to control or take dominion over  some culture that used those colors?  No.

So some teenager decided she really liked a pattern of prints and colors and wanted to wear them to a fancy dance.  BOO and HISS to all those who object.  Think twice and thrice about it...

[Cavebear]

What does the frowny face on the main screen for this particular thread mean?

[Munch]

What does the frowny face on the main screen for this particular thread mean?

It's really just a way for the o.p, in this case Drac, to indicate their pissed off at the subject of the thread they created

[Cavebear]

It's really just a way for the o.p, in this case Drac, to indicate their pissed off at the subject of the thread they created

Thanks.  I am dumb at some of this stuff.

[Mr.Obvious]

{Edit: And I will restate it "again" that I feel that this instance is definitely being ridiculous on the people being outraged by it, since she seemed to legitimately be showing respect for the outfit and wearing it to a classy event as opposed to say a frat party or something.}

The problem is it always seems to be the people doing the appropriating (don't mean "you" as an individual but rather "you" as a cultural group) that say they don't have any problem with it, like it's their opinion on the issue that matters.

I think alot of what is called cultural appropriation, such as in this instance, is definitely blowing things way out of proportion, and ultimately it should be whomever's culture is being appropriated that decides if it's offensive or not and not white people.

But there is nothing silly about say Native Americans, who had 80% or more of their population (tens of millions of people) genocided by Europeans saying that it is in poor taste for Europeans to wear their sacred clothing as irreverent costumes or to look "exotic". There is nothing silly about Africans who had their continent raped and pillaged for hundreds of years by Europeans being annoyed by Europeans wearing their traditional clothing because it looks cool.

You can argue those examples happened hundred+ years ago, but the simple fact of the matter is that it both continues to this day (Native Americans are treated horribly in the United States, Africa is still a puppet continent for European and Asian powers, African Americans are still oppressed in many ways by the European majority) and thus is still an open wound.

The Italian example falls flat because while yes we were a minority in Europe and America and for a long time were considered "non-white", we still were one of the most powerful cultural groups in the world. Fuck, European culture is basically our creation... we can hardly be considered oppressed.



Ultimately the argument I see here seems to be, "I have the right to offend, so I should be offensive!" and it strikes me very much of the, "I have the right to my guns, so fuck you for wanting to take them!"... if someone finds your choice of borrowing from their culture offensive, then engage them in an honest conversation and explain why you are wearing the outfit. I guarantee you the overwhelming majority of people will not be offended when you offer a better reason than, "Oh, it makes me look so exotic!". But if you meet them with just pointless attitude and sass, then yes they will respond in kind. I honestly don't get this obsession with having the right to be a dick means you have to be a dick.

I have had people talk to me over some of the traditional African outfits I wear (several family friends are from Tanzania and Kenya and have sent me clothing, and I have family from the Caribbean as well who have sent me Rastafari-clothing)... no one has ever been offended that this scrawny white/brown guy is wearing ethnic clothing. The common response is that it's really cool to see someone showing appreciation of their culture (and if there is any way I could hook them up because they want clothing that reminds them of their roots as well).

It's all about context; wearing these outfits with respect for what they mean and represent generally is met with respect. Wearing them just to look "foreign" and "exotic", and people are going to be offended that they are being viewed as "others" and a fashion statement rather than as human beings with histories. I think that is a perfectly logical response.

And holy fuck, that went on alot longer than I meant, so my bad.

It is a long post, but what i understand from it; you don't seem to understand my point at all, so if The intent is to debate my point; it kind of misses. So i feel like i can circumvent most of that.

It's not that i think that it's my opinion that matters.
It's that i don't think peoples opinions Should matter to anyone doing things they enjoy that aren't really harming anyone.

And look, if you feel bad about people being offended by what you do; that's fine. And if you want to listen to them and understand why; that's even better.  But it doesn't mean you are actually doing something wrong. So you have to make out for yourself if you wish to continue down that path or not. And it is up to you. Because offending someone is not The same as attacking someone. And offending someone isn't The same as 'exerting a right to be offensive'. Because offense is in The eye of The beholder.

Shiranu, i understand and appreciate how you wish to defend The rights of those, historically or presently, less fortunate than yourself. But there simply is no such thing as a right to 'not be offended'. And if i were a praying man, i'd pray there'll never be such a thing.

In any case, there's nothing wrong with caring about your cultural heritage. But just because one thing has  certain meaning to you, you Should  not go around assuming everyone ties your meaning to that. A if someone has a different meaning for that thing; it fails to be an insult because it's simply a different interpretation.

[Cavebear]

It is a long post, but what i understand from it; you don't seem to understand my point at all, so if The intent is to debate my point; it kind of misses. So i feel like i can circumvent most of that.

It's not that i think that it's my opinion that matters.
It's that i don't think peoples opinions Should matter to anyone doing things they enjoy that aren't really harming anyone.

And look, if you feel bad about people being offended by what you do; that's fine. And if you want to listen to them and understand why; that's even better.  But it doesn't mean you are actually doing something wrong. So you have to make out for yourself if you wish to continue down that path or not. And it is up to you. Because offending someone is not The same as attacking someone. And offending someone isn't The same as 'exerting a right to be offensive'. Because offense is in The eye of The beholder.

Shiranu, i understand and appreciate how you wish to defend The rights of those, historically or presently, less fortunate than yourself. But there simply is no such thing as a right to 'not be offended'. And if i were a praying man, i'd pray there'll never be such a thing.

In any case, there's nothing wrong with caring about your cultural heritage. But just because one thing has  certain meaning to you, you Should  not go around assuming everyone ties your meaning to that. A if someone has a different meaning for that thing; it fails to be an insult because it's simply a different interpretation.

The key is "not harming anyone" and I think that is where people err is the definition of "not harming".  Loud noises from churches, synagogues, mosques, etc are offensive to most people not because of their meaning, but for the unwanted noise. 

I once had a cheap0 apartment near a church (probably why it was cheap, but I wasn't aware of the noise at the time I signed the lease).  The first time the bells rang in early morning, I practically fell out of bed from the noise-schock.  I got out of the lease and moved to another apartment no where near load bells.  But it was amazing to me that ANYONE was allowed to make so much noise.  I thought is that, with some unavoidable sounds like mowing a lawn, your right to really loud noise ends at your property line.