Author Topic: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.  (Read 2141 times)

Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« on: April 12, 2018, 12:28:53 PM »
Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
It is said that all parents hurt their children in some way or another. This is true, inadvertently.
No sane parent plans to intentionally hurt their children. Except, shamefully, in these enlightened times.
We are showing ourselves to be as callous as our maker. Perhaps this is not the brightest thing to do.
We intentionally pass on our negative biases to our children and continue to pass on our war mongering ways and debt.
I hope, like me; you do not take pride in passing on debt, a polluted world, continuing strife in issues that should have been resolved hundreds of years ago, homophobia, misogyny etc.
If we were half as bright as we think we are, none of us would be passing on our responsibilities and creating hardship for our progeny.
I have no way to effect mass change and am thus a prisoner to my shame.
I thought some might share theirs with me.
Caring seems to be at a low point these days.
Polarization is evil as it inhibits caring.
Shame reduces polarization.
Share your shame.
It is sharing love.
Regards
DL

For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2018, 12:34:25 PM »
No kids. I'm good. Bring le deluge.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline pr126

Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2018, 12:37:09 PM »
Quote
We are showing ourselves to be as callous as our maker.
That is because we made "our maker" in our own image.


White Guilt?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 12:50:32 PM by pr126 »
"It doesn't matter what is true. It only matters what people believe is true."

Offline Baruch

Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2018, 12:58:44 PM »
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That is because we made "our maker" in our own image.


White Guilt?

The POV of the OP is ... have a better standard of behavior.  If you are a theist, then since we make our god in our image (I agree), make a god that is a positive ideal, not a negative problem.
שלום

Offline pr126

Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2018, 01:00:56 PM »
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The POV of the OP is ... have a better standard of behavior.  If you are a theist, then since we make our god in our image (I agree), make a god that is a positive ideal, not a negative problem.

Tell that to The prophet Muhammad. (PBUH)
He created Allah in his own image. Allah is his own alter ego.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 01:05:02 PM by pr126 »
"It doesn't matter what is true. It only matters what people believe is true."

Offline Baruch

Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2018, 01:18:34 PM »
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Tell that to The prophet Muhammad. (PBUH)
He created Allah in his own image. Allah is his own alter ego.

Yes, but better people have better alter-egos.  Whining about things 1400 years ago, doesn't help anyone.  If Hitler had been accepted to Vienna Art School ... millions more would have lived.  The problem for you today, is that millions of Muslims see Allah as their alter ego.  European colonialism tried to solve this, by making Jesus their alter ego.
שלום

Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2018, 03:44:08 PM »
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Tell that to The prophet Muhammad. (PBUH)
He created Allah in his own image. Allah is his own alter ego.

Wrong part of the forum but what the hell.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

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Humanity centered religions, good? Yes.

 Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL


Offline aitm

Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2018, 05:07:35 PM »
Speak for yourself son. Many of us don't follow your suggested programming.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2018, 05:29:34 PM »
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Speak for yourself son. Many of us don't follow your suggested programming.

True. Many do not mind burdening their children and grand children.

Regards
DL

Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2018, 08:28:34 PM »
On Children
 Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2018, 08:37:31 PM »
The above was one of the ideas/ideals I used to help me raise my daughter.  Of course I failed.  I was not the best father I could have been.  I was not perfect--but I did do the best I could with the personal makeup I had at that time to work with.  But one thing I did do was shun shame.  Shame is of little value--it only diminishes.  I did discipline her, but not punish.  I tried my damnedest to demonstrated that all of life is made of choices and each and every choice has consequences--good, bad or neutral.  So, I hoped to have the discipline she needed to be corrective and not shame based.  I showed disappointment (but not very often) but did not attach shame to it, only reasons why I was disappointed.  Shame is not really corrective--it usually leads to depression or leads to thoughts of unworthiness. Those are not positive or corrective feelings to have--usually only makes matters worse.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Cavebear

Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2018, 02:10:57 AM »
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Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
It is said that all parents hurt their children in some way or another. This is true, inadvertently.
No sane parent plans to intentionally hurt their children. Except, shamefully, in these enlightened times.
We are showing ourselves to be as callous as our maker. Perhaps this is not the brightest thing to do.
We intentionally pass on our negative biases to our children and continue to pass on our war mongering ways and debt.
I hope, like me; you do not take pride in passing on debt, a polluted world, continuing strife in issues that should have been resolved hundreds of years ago, homophobia, misogyny etc.
If we were half as bright as we think we are, none of us would be passing on our responsibilities and creating hardship for our progeny.
I have no way to effect mass change and am thus a prisoner to my shame.
I thought some might share theirs with me.
Caring seems to be at a low point these days.
Polarization is evil as it inhibits caring.
Shame reduces polarization.
Share your shame.
It is sharing love.
Regards
DL

For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

"As our Maker"?  It makes everything else you say irrelevant.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2018, 07:01:15 PM »
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The above was one of the ideas/ideals I used to help me raise my daughter.  Of course I failed.  I was not the best father I could have been.  I was not perfect--but I did do the best I could with the personal makeup I had at that time to work with.  But one thing I did do was shun shame.  Shame is of little value--it only diminishes.  I did discipline her, but not punish.  I tried my damnedest to demonstrated that all of life is made of choices and each and every choice has consequences--good, bad or neutral.  So, I hoped to have the discipline she needed to be corrective and not shame based.  I showed disappointment (but not very often) but did not attach shame to it, only reasons why I was disappointed.  Shame is not really corrective--it usually leads to depression or leads to thoughts of unworthiness. Those are not positive or corrective feelings to have--usually only makes matters worse.   

FMPOV, if we do not recognize that we should be ashamed of what we are doing to our children, we will not correct our foul actions.

Just knowing what we are doing does not seem to be moving us to a better way. Shame might trigger our sense of duty to our children.

If you have a better word, I am happy to hear it.

Regards
DL


Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2018, 07:02:14 PM »
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"As our Maker"?  It makes everything else you say irrelevant.

Then you are not too bright.

Regards
DL

Re: Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children.
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2018, 08:19:06 PM »
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FMPOV, if we do not recognize that we should be ashamed of what we are doing to our children, we will not correct our foul actions.

Just knowing what we are doing does not seem to be moving us to a better way. Shame might trigger our sense of duty to our children.

If you have a better word, I am happy to hear it.

Regards
DL
It may be semantics, but I look at it like this:
Guilt:

a feeling of responsibility or remorse for some offense, crime, wrong, etc., whether real or imagined.

Shame:

the painful feeling arising from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improper, ridiculous, etc., done by oneself or another.

Shame is a loaded and toxic word.  It too often drives a person to go within and hide from it.  Guilt, when it dawns upon us, is often a motivator to change our actions or to repair the damage we have done, or both.  I find that much more positive.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

 

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