The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?

Started by Greatest I am, April 06, 2018, 11:41:28 AM

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Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on April 19, 2018, 01:12:07 AM
Always the best answer.  And keep your towel handy.

Quick, your babel fish needs replacing ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Greatest I am

Quote from: Mike Cl on April 17, 2018, 07:26:09 PM
Who is the 'we'?  As far as I know, there is not one agreed upon version of Gnostic --much less Gnostic Christian.

No Gods are the same but the we is all those who call themselves Gnostic Christians.

We are close to agnostics, so even if they do not take my label, we are close in ideology.

Agnostic is related to the word Gnosis and Gnostic in the Greek language.

Regards
DL   

Greatest I am

Quote from: Unbeliever on April 17, 2018, 07:37:22 PM
I think gnostics are much like mystics, in that they have an independent means of acquiring "knowledge." But I have little confidence that their acquisitions are reliable.

No more and no less than any of the meditative religions. You get out of it what you put into it.

That is why we are perpetual seekers. No idol worship allowed.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am

Quote from: trdsf on April 17, 2018, 08:28:16 PM
The 'how' that I subscribe to is 'damn improbable guess'.  I don't think there was anything psychic or supernatural going on.

We drifted apart, but very gently.  Thank you for the thought, though.

The fundamental problem I have with resorting to telepathy as the explanation is that telepathy remains undemonstrated in any sort of repeatable, quantifiable way.  I would be more willing to credit that you believe it's telepathy than that you know it is.  Knowledge is demonstrable; if you want to assert telepathy is the explanation, you need to be able to demonstrate that it is.

As for the video, I have always found 'Through the Wormhole' to be much too willing to leap to the sensational "... but could it be THIS?!" than a science show should be.  Telepathy remains undemonstrated; the responsible thing for the program to have done would be to say whether those experiments have been confirmed or denied by other experimenters.

A video much more to the point is this TED Talk by James Randi, and the reminder that constant vigilance is not just the price of freedom, but also the price of truly living in the real world.  What is true doesn't care what I want to believe is true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcPuRaSEq1I

"you need to be able to demonstrate that it is."

No.

All I need for my belief is a victim who can confirm the event. I have that.

You might need a demonstration, but I and my victim do not.

Regards
DL

Cavebear

Quote from: Greatest I am on May 05, 2018, 09:37:09 AM
"you need to be able to demonstrate that it is."

No.

All I need for my belief is a victim who can confirm the event. I have that.

You might need a demonstration, but I and my victim do not.

Regards
DL

All theisms are equally idiotic to me. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Greatest I am

Quote from: SGOS on April 18, 2018, 08:41:49 AM
@Greatist I am
Another widely held belief, based on the claim of a person who has first hand "knowledge"  It is not only a widely held belief, but as valid as any other unsupported belief:
Nancy Lieder was a nice lady, who wouldn't make something up.  But until May 27, 2003, when Planet X didn't show up as scheduled, her story made sense to many who don't process information the way many others do, and who's standard for "knowing" does not demand the inconvenience of supportive evidence.

https://www.theweathernetwork.com/news/articles/nibiru-hoax-rears-ugly-head-again-what-you-need-to-know-about-this-persistent-myth/99534

My claim is supported by a witness/victim.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am

Quote from: Cavebear on May 05, 2018, 09:39:11 AM
All theisms are equally idiotic to me. 

Ditto. Save agnosticism.

That is, Gnostic Christianity to me.

Regards
DL

Baruch

Quote from: Greatest I am on May 05, 2018, 09:43:22 AM
Ditto. Save agnosticism.

Regards
DL
Quote from: Greatest I am on May 05, 2018, 09:40:33 AM
My claim is supported by a witness/victim.

Regards
DL

Unless it is externally witnessed by 100 atheists who are not drunk at the time, it never happened ;-)  I have come to think that atheism as a psychology is driven by phobia of the inner voice that we all have.  See "Breakdown Of the Bicameral Mind".  The opposite pathology is thinking that the inner voice is G-d (I am special egomania) that we see in prophets.  Many people 1400 years ago in the Arabia desert may have had auditions (hear voices) or visions (see things) ... but not all were egomaniacs.  Empires and new religions aren't built by the humble.

Religious behavior is people acting out auditions and visions etc.  A "happening" or "acting out".  Religious institutions are the institutionalization of that behavior (rather than spontaneous behavior of the Volk).  Atheists deny psychology, because they deny subjective experience.  They are anti-social in general, opposing all institutions.  They are geeks who have no poetry in their soul, because they don't have any "soul".
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Greatest I am

Quote from: Baruch on May 05, 2018, 09:44:37 AM
Unless it is externally witnessed by 100 atheists who are not drunk at the time, it never happened ;-)  I have come to think that atheism as a psychology is driven by phobia of the inner voice that we all have.  See "Breakdown Of the Bicameral Mind".  The opposite pathology is thinking that the inner voice is G-d (I am special egomania) that we see in prophets.  Many people 1400 years ago in the Arabia desert may have had auditions (hear voices) or visions (see things) ... but not all were egomaniacs.  Empires and new religions aren't built by the humble.

I hear you. I am often chastised for my arrogance and assertiveness. I call it assuredness in what I say since I always tell the truth that can be known.

It is not my fault that so few ever force their apotheosis.

Regards
DL

Baruch

Quote from: Greatest I am on May 05, 2018, 09:49:04 AM
I hear you. I am often chastised for my arrogance and assertiveness. I call it assuredness in what I say since I always tell the truth that can be known.

It is not my fault that so few ever force their apotheosis.

Regards
DL

Peak experience happens usually spontaneously.  I don't think it can be forced ... but one can be ... seeking it, ready for it.

I don't think you are creating any empires or religious institutions ... no really not very egotistical at all.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Greatest I am

Quote from: Baruch on May 05, 2018, 09:53:19 AM
Peak experience happens usually spontaneously.  I don't think it can be forced ... but one can be ... seeking it, ready for it.

I don't think you are creating any empires or religious institutions ... no really not very egotistical at all.

You see apotheosis properly.
Many see it as bragging or point to the secret knowledge that the ancients spoke of but it is not secret. It is just hard to find it as most do not go within themselves deeply enough.

Even Jesus chastised the religious hierarchy for separating God from man.


Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

By forcing my apotheosis, I meant that I both desired it and was ready for it, so we see it the same way.

Few can discern or think the way you and I do.

Strange that given that your education is a lot more extensive than my self teaching.

I guess that that is the difference between being formally educated and being smart.

Many are educated but few are smart.

Regards
DL


Mike Cl

Quote from: Greatest I am on May 05, 2018, 09:30:10 AM
No Gods are the same but the we is all those who call themselves Gnostic Christians.

We are close to agnostics, so even if they do not take my label, we are close in ideology.

Agnostic is related to the word Gnosis and Gnostic in the Greek language.

Regards
DL
If you believe the label of Gnostic Christian is what you want to wear, then by all means, wear it.  It does not suit me (the christian part repelled me) even tho we both share many thoughts that are the same.  I went through a fairly long search/journey in the gnostic area.  I thought of it as a time of intensive 'soul' searching more than knowing.  Unity uses that term, 'knowing' quite a bit and some of it resonated with me.  But at the end of that particular phase of my life I came to the conclusion that there is no soul, no god, no supernatural powers of any kind--therefore there is no otherworldly gnosis except within myself.  And that is the realization (and being okay with that) that there is no supernatural anything.  All is nature--and that is not for your nor against you, it just is.  The purpose of life is life.  And that's it.  All the meaning of that is what you give it.  It's all on you and you alone.  I don't 'believe' anything; I no longer think there is gnosis nor supernatural anything.  What you see is what you get and it is up to you to make sense of it or not.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Greatest I am

Quote from: Mike Cl on May 05, 2018, 11:01:14 AM
If you believe the label of Gnostic Christian is what you want to wear, then by all means, wear it.  It does not suit me (the christian part repelled me) even tho we both share many thoughts that are the same.  I went through a fairly long search/journey in the gnostic area.  I thought of it as a time of intensive 'soul' searching more than knowing.  Unity uses that term, 'knowing' quite a bit and some of it resonated with me.  But at the end of that particular phase of my life I came to the conclusion that there is no soul, no god, no supernatural powers of any kind--therefore there is no otherworldly gnosis except within myself.  And that is the realization (and being okay with that) that there is no supernatural anything.  All is nature--and that is not for your nor against you, it just is.  The purpose of life is life.  And that's it.  All the meaning of that is what you give it.  It's all on you and you alone.  I don't 'believe' anything; I no longer think there is gnosis nor supernatural anything.  What you see is what you get and it is up to you to make sense of it or not.

As you say, we share the same basic thinking.

There are no supernatural beliefs in Gnostic Christianity and I liked that part of our ideology that says we have to fight what we see as evil.

I hope that is also a part of your ideology.

That is hard to do from here and I hope you go to more religious sites to -----

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roqoA08QdbA

Regards
DL

Baruch

Quote from: Greatest I am on May 05, 2018, 10:13:24 AM
You see apotheosis properly.
Many see it as bragging or point to the secret knowledge that the ancients spoke of but it is not secret. It is just hard to find it as most do not go within themselves deeply enough.

Even Jesus chastised the religious hierarchy for separating God from man.


Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

By forcing my apotheosis, I meant that I both desired it and was ready for it, so we see it the same way.

Few can discern or think the way you and I do.

Strange that given that your education is a lot more extensive than my self teaching.

I guess that that is the difference between being formally educated and being smart.

Many are educated but few are smart.

Regards
DL

The basis of my comment was the "un-controversy" between "sudden" and "slow" enlightenment in Chinese Buddhism.  There are smart people all over, all thru history.  Some are alive today.  Such people should be sought out, and listened to (yeah for YouTube etc) ... because one life isn't long enough for someone to invent civilization from scratch.  We have to stand on the shoulders of others to see farther.

However that doesn't accrue to my credit, that I see farther, because I know why I can (that human pyramid I am temporarily at the top of).  On the other hand, lexicographer Samuel Johnson said he could learn something new from anyone.  So don't despise the village idiot standing next to you ... he may be Zeus in disguise ;-)

We are comparable in age, I don't have much time left.  So I work like a Trojan at improving myself.  People like Champollion (decipherer of Hieroglyphic) inspire me.  I am reading a biography of him now, to complement my ancient Egyptian study.

I studied Hebrew (presently teaching it), Aramaic, Babylonian, Canaanite (Ugaritic), Arabic and ancient Egyptian over the last 12 months alone.  And I have studied those before, I benefit from re-study.  I am an Indiana Jones of words/ideas.  And I have the official movie hat to prove it!
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

trdsf

Quote from: Greatest I am on May 05, 2018, 09:37:09 AM
"you need to be able to demonstrate that it is."

No.

All I need for my belief is a victim who can confirm the event. I have that.

You might need a demonstration, but I and my victim do not.
As long as you remember that what you do and don't believe is of no relevance to anyone but yourself.

I won't argue that you believe in telepathy, or that you believe you've experienced it, but that's not the same as myself or anyone else accepting the idea that it actually happened.  It's not knowledge or evidence if it's not independently repeatable and verifiable by any observer.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan