Author Topic: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?  (Read 5627 times)

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #105 on: April 16, 2018, 05:29:03 PM »
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"We live in the best of all possible worlds because it is the only possible world." ... quoting Leibniz, aka Dr Pangloss (Candide).

I simply can't agree to that, from an empirical POV.  Human experience empirically denies that human life is good (in an absolute way).  I can only have a relative good (yesterday is better than today, or tomorrow is better than today).  I have to ask, better or worse compared to what?  And once we include inevitable bias, we discover the distortion of optimism and pessimism.

I agree that there is only one world, but I think that the thought experiment "best of all possible X" to be empty, 

With you my friend, I have to cut as much of what you put so that I might focus.

If you agree that there is only one world, then you see it as the best world as there is no other to compare it to.

This does not mean that you cannot imagine better. It just says you cannot have that better one at this point in time. By this point in time I mean the point in time that you look at it. It continues to evolve by the second but regardless of when you look, it is always the best that it can be given the past history.

"Human experience empirically denies that human life is good (in an absolute way)."

I agree only partially with this depending on the definition of terms you and I might agree on.

If you were to ask any living thing, assuming it could answer, if life for it was good at that point in time, I think, since it is alive, it would have to say yes. It might say that it was not in the absolutely best life it could imagine, but like you and I, it would say, I am happy to take what I can have at this point in times. Rheumatism and all.

That may not be good in an absolute way but it is good life as it can answer because it has some good life as compared to bad life that would not be alive enough to answer. That to life, at that point in time, is the best of all possible world for what is alive.

Thus I refute your, ""best of all possible X" to be empty." It is not empty, it is a fact.

Regards
DL






Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #106 on: April 16, 2018, 05:38:56 PM »
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Greatest I Am--Unity would approve of your use of 'I Am'; at one time so would I--well, at least sort of.  I ended up thinking that I Am is not really god, since there is no god (and not even Unity persuaded me into thinking or believing there was one), but one's best (or highest if one prefers) possible self.  And even then, the measuring would be done by one's self, based on self assessed values and ideals. 
As for this being the best possible universe because it is the only possible universe--I can see that if one is striving to 'live in the moment' or 'in the now'.  That can be a good state to achieve.  At one time I strove to do that.  What realization I came to was that it helped me appreciate what I was, where I was and all that I have and am.  But I realized that living in the now means the past has no value and the future is never going to come.  Only the 'now' exists.  I found that made it impossible for me to plan for the future or to use the past to evaluate what (if anything) I would like to work on changing or adding in my life.

Why? What is stopping you right now from, say, evaluating your past menu and planning for your favorite meal tomorrow?

That would allow for you, tomorrow, to be able to say that this day is better than yesterday thanks to the meal I planned yesterday.

That thinking is why I can print this Gnostic Christian saying any time and any day.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Regards
DL
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 06:44:55 PM by Greatest I am »

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #107 on: April 16, 2018, 05:49:00 PM »
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Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

Not to you, but if real, it certainly is to the one who experienced it. The fact that I have a witness/victim makes it real, just as your experiences were if you had a coroberating witness to prove that it is not a figment of your imagination.

Regards
DL

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #108 on: April 16, 2018, 05:59:16 PM »
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I'm just curious, are you familiar with the Egyptian god Nuk pu Nuk? The term seems to translate as "I am what I am," or "I am who I am":

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The concept of "I am" seems to be in many older traditions and I would not be surprised to find it in Egypt as the Jewish myth is a rewrite of myths from both Egypt and Sumer.

I think all the ancients who were writing scriptures were all cherry picking from each other the same way Gnostic Christianity used the Christian myth as a base for us to create our myths to put against theirs.

Debate and discussions were more important when all were God seekers and not idol worshipers which spoiled the soup later.

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That creation of debate points is likely why the hate your mother and father line was put into the bible to contradict the love your mother and father lines.

On the name of God, please listen from the 9 min . mark and see how crazy the Hebrew language is and how the name of God and his main attribute of androgyny has been handily forgotten by the current misogynous mainstream religions.

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Regards
DL
 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 06:09:02 PM by Greatest I am »

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #109 on: April 16, 2018, 06:31:27 PM »
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Why? What is stopping you right now from, say, evaluating your past menu and planning for your favorite meal tomorrow?

That would allow for you, tomorrow, to be able to say that this day is better than yesterday thanks to the meal I planned yesterday.

That thinking is why I can print this Gnostic Christian saying any time and any day.


Regards
DL
What do you mean, 'why"?  You just paraphrased what I said.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #110 on: April 16, 2018, 06:42:41 PM »
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Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Regards
DL
You really like that little paragraph it seems.  I find it rather off-putting.  I am a bit puzzled why you like to use the term 'Christian' with gnostic.  You are not a classical christian for Jesus is not a real figure, but a mythical one.  Why not use Aesop Gnostic or Cynic (for the wandering Cynics) Gnostic?  Why Jesus.  Why not just Gnostic.  In a sense any thoughtful atheist would be (or more properly, could be) a gnostic for the answers to the all those questions that bug people--all the why's and what purpose is there to life, type questions are found inside us.  I could be labeled a gnostic--or a Campbell Gnostic in that he suggested that the purpose of life is life; and the key to happiness is to follow one's bliss.  And life and bliss are internal states.  For me Jesus is simply a myth among many myths.  To single him out is rather limiting--and for me, misleading for I am firmly convinced (in a very gnostic way) that Jesus is/was a myth who happens to be used by millions to control billions for their own gain. 


Regards
DL
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #111 on: April 16, 2018, 06:50:22 PM »
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What do you mean, 'why"?  You just paraphrased what I said.

The why was to this.

" I found that made it impossible for me to plan for the future"

Perhaps I should have said why is it impossible for you ---- " to plan for the future or to use the past to evaluate what (if anything) I would like to work on changing or adding in my life."

That is why I showed you could plan ahead to add to your life.

Regards
DL

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #112 on: April 16, 2018, 06:55:32 PM »
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The way Christians use and abuse Christ, you are correct in your evaluation.

Gnostic Christians use the archetypal good man differently. Not to slave us to a religion, but to free us from religions.

You will not see Christians quoting the following.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
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Regards
DL

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #113 on: April 16, 2018, 07:00:23 PM »
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The why was to this.

" I found that made it impossible for me to plan for the future"

Perhaps I should have said why is it impossible for you ---- " to plan for the future or to use the past to evaluate what (if anything) I would like to work on changing or adding in my life."

That is why I showed you could plan ahead to add to your life.

Regards
DL
I don't find it impossible for me to plan for the future.  I found that if I stuck to attempting to stay in the 'now' all the time, that I would have to be blinded to both the past--for that is not in the 'now'; and to the future for that has not happened yet.  So, instead of looking at life that way, I use the phrase 'stay in the now' to simply mean to appreciate what is happening right here and right now.  That does not cut off the past, nor keep me from looking toward the future.  I do as you suggest--plan away!  (but don't become too attached to any outcome or anticipated outcome)
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #114 on: April 16, 2018, 07:04:47 PM »
The best way. We all know what they say about the best laid plans.

Regards
DL

Offline Baruch

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #115 on: April 16, 2018, 10:22:44 PM »
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The best way. We all know what they say about the best laid plans.

Regards
DL

Yes, we are Elohim .. collectively, not individually ... the first is piety, the second is blasphemy.  Alan Watts was a bodhisattva (an missionary angel).

To think a thing is not to know a thing.  To know a thing is not to understand a thing.  I had to become an old man before I understood anything!  And like the Ancient Mariner ... the cost of understanding has been high.  But I won't have wisdom, until I reach the end.
שלום

Offline trdsf

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #116 on: April 16, 2018, 11:22:44 PM »
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The word God has a number of definitions and has been used in many ways.

Primarily, it mean last word in terms of authority.

That is what I am. I have chosen to be my own authority because I have earned that right. Not just due to my apotheosis but by my level of thought.

Do I or be I good or evil, I stand as responsible for my actions. No one speaks for me but me.

I am the ideal and the fittest thinking man I know. That does not mean that there are none better, and as an esoteric ecumenist, I perpetually seek those out.

If you can say what I just did for yourself, who is your God?
I don't have one.  I don't need one.  I find that reality is enough.  It is, at least, amenable to examination that can in principle be independently confirmed by others.  I have found more of a sense of awe in the eyepiece of a telescope or at the end of a mathematical derivation than I ever got sitting in a pew or chanting in a circle—to borrow from Douglas Adams, I find the garden sufficiently lovely to not need to imagine it has fairies in it as well.

I need to ask, then, if you're your own authority, why label that with the syllable 'god'?  As a meditational focus?  As a shorthand for the concepts involved?  Force of habit?

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Quote from: trdsf
In the long run, though, it's probably not useful to refer to 'atheist churches'
I can appreciate your distaste.

In the old days, before the mainstream religions went stupid on us and started reading their myths literally, the temples and churches were mystery schools, read that as atheist schools, where people sought God, as defined as the best laws and rules to live life by.

In a sense, the brain dead religions based on the supernatural usurped the old atheist churches and temples. Think of atheists returning the favor and now getting pay back and reclaiming what was once yours from the literalist fools.
I don't read 'mystery schools' as 'atheist schools'.  In my experience, most atheists prefer to spread knowledge, not hide it under mummery and ritual.  I'd recommend you to some Richard Carrier lectures on cults of two millennia ago—the sort of cult that he surmises originally grew up around the character later known as Jesus, even before the literalists took command, still preached the standard religious fare of life after death.  They were in no way atheistic.

Atheism isn't an 'atheology' to be taught in a church anyway.  It's a method to be taught in school: skeptical inquiry and the scientific method.
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Offline trdsf

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #117 on: April 16, 2018, 11:29:59 PM »
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Not to you, but if real, it certainly is to the one who experienced it. The fact that I have a witness/victim makes it real, just as your experiences were if you had a coroberating witness to prove that it is not a figment of your imagination.
I even have a corroborating witness to my event—but since it is non-reproducible, I cannot in good conscience count it as evidence.  It definitely happened... but odd coincidences happen.  It would be weirder if nothing weird ever happened to me.  Instead, something inexplicable happens once in a very great while... and that's in accord with statistics.
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Offline SGOS

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #118 on: April 17, 2018, 06:37:34 AM »
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Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
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Cool cloud pictures

Offline SGOS

Re: The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
« Reply #119 on: April 17, 2018, 08:54:16 AM »
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I even have a corroborating witness to my event—but since it is non-reproducible, I cannot in good conscience count it as evidence.  It definitely happened... but odd coincidences happen.  It would be weirder if nothing weird ever happened to me.  Instead, something inexplicable happens once in a very great while... and that's in accord with statistics.
but...but... If you believe it in your heart, you don't need anything else.  Everyone should take your word for it, and believe it.  One time a guy told me he could tell a person's future by feeling the bumps on his/her head.  Before he told me that, I would not have believed it, but now that he told me, I know that it is true, just like everyone knows that Martians live among us.

 

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