Author Topic: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible  (Read 1217 times)

Offline Baruch

Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« on: April 01, 2018, 07:03:23 PM »
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This is pretty much current secular scholarship.  Monotheism developed gradually, particularly after the return of the Judahites from Babylon circa 500 BCE.  I would think this process was still underway when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE.
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Offline GrinningYMIR

Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2018, 08:13:38 AM »


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Offline Baruch

Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2018, 02:36:45 PM »
Is that your mummy? ;-)
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Offline Baruch

Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2018, 11:22:19 AM »
Freud is the first modern person who tied Pharaoh Akhenaten to Moses ... but theologically, this is consistent with gnosticism going back millennia ...

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Pharaoh Akhenaten was the first monotheist, and of a non-anthropomorphic/naturalist vision as well.  Not quite atheist.  He was originally named Amunhotep after his father, the previous Pharaoh.  His mother was a commoner, Queen Tiy, and her parents were Yuya and Tuya.  It has been proposed by an modern Egyptian scholar that Yuya was Joseph.  Don't think of the connections as literal, but "based on a true story" like in Hollywood.  We don't have Akhenaten's mummy, or his wife Nefertiti.  They were an odd couple, he was something of a soy-boy, with part feminine body characteristics ... maybe some kind of genetic hermaphrodite.  As a youth, he was excluded from public view and public role, because of his odd appearance.

Ironically his wife Nefertiti, is often called one of the most beautiful women of all time (classic looks still admired today).  We do have the mummies of his son, Tutankhamun (originally named Tutankhaten) .. the most famous of all Pharaohs.  And we have the mummies of Queen Tiy's parents, Yuya and Tuya.  Genetic analysis shows that Yuya was not Egyptian, but Hurrian (from what the Bible called Padan Aram).  In Genesis, Padan Aram is the point of origin for Abraham (not Ur in Sumeria).  So Yuya wasn't Semite, but he came from an area later associated with Semites (Amorites, Arameans, Arabs).  The traditional story of Noah, in that area, targeted a mountain in Padan Aram .... not Ararat further NE.  Yuya was the master of Pharaoh's chariot force and other offices.  He was a mercenary which in ancient Egyptian was called Apiru which is cognate to Hebrew.  The actual Yuya was a polytheist who honored the traditional Egyptian gods.

So "inspired by" not "literally" ... the three Abrahamic religions all stem from a mutant revolutionary Pharaoh, with a determined mother who was not of royal blood (Pharaohs often married their own step sisters).  Tutankhaten changed his name, because when he came to the throne he reversed his father's policies and restored the rights and income of the traditional priesthoods (who were the only literate people, the bureaucracy).  After this short lived Pharaoh passed from life, he and his family entered into folk stories, and those led to religions dominating 1/2 of the human race today.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 11:43:01 AM by Baruch »
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Offline SGOS

Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2018, 11:42:04 AM »
Catholicism evolved from an Egyptian religion, then?  Then the Egyptians said to Hell with the bullshit, and followed Mohammed.  Then the Baha'i' combined them together again.  Modern religions are confused, although adamant about forcing their confusion on everyone else.

Offline Baruch

Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2018, 11:53:06 AM »
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Catholicism evolved from an Egyptian religion, then?  Then the Egyptians said to Hell with the bullshit, and followed Mohammed.  Then the Baha'i' combined them together again.  Modern religions are confused, although adamant about forcing their confusion on everyone else.

Yes.  There are three sources for the predecessors of official Christianity ... Antioch in Syria, Jerusalem in Judea, and Alexandria in Egypt.  And Damascus and Petra were also involved (Petra may be the original Mecca) with Pauline views.  Paul was from Tarsus, NW of Antioch.  The Catholic/Orthodox churches (aside from the Armenian, Nestorian and Ethiopian branches) are the creation of Emperor Constantine.  Marian cultus comes from Alexandria, from Bishop Cyril less than 100 years after Constantine, as a way of continuing the old worship of Isis and the infant Horus (see Nativity in two gospels, but absent in the other two, not counting the Gospel of Thomas (certainly Antiochian or Alexandrian).

Yes, the Egyptians had a Hell, 3000 years before Christianity even was dreamed of, let alone made official.  Horus is the good son, and Set is his evil uncle.  The Horus/Osiris story is all about resurrection ... as was Ba'al in Syria (where Antioch later was built).  There is even an official theology of "second death" which leaves readers of Paul confused (because they won't look outside the Bible for information, because they don't dare to).  Apep is the great evil serpent of Genesis, though Satan also appears in the Gilgamesh epic from pre-Babylon/Sumeria.

Yes, the Egyptians were imperialist ... Hamites who were anti-Semite, anti-Nubian, anti-Libyan (Berber).  Their imperialism continues thru the three Abrahamic religions, much mutated after 5000 years.  The only comparable influence on Western/Middle Eastern culture is Babylon.  Egypt represents chauvinistic empire, Babylon represents melting-pot empire.  The differences between globalists and nationalists date all the way back to the Bronze Age.

Bronze Age race theory:



A Libi, Nubi, Shosi and Kemeti.  Notice the Shosi/Semite has tzitzit.  Still worn by Orthodox Jews.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 12:06:19 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Baruch

Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2018, 12:20:09 PM »
The Great Hymn to the Aten, composed by the Pharaoh himself, is a thematic predecessor to Psalm 104 in the Bible.

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The Pauline emphasis on Last Judgement, and potential Second Death are taken directly from the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 12:21:45 PM by Baruch »
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Offline PopeyesPappy

Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2018, 12:59:03 PM »
I like the late 18th early 19th dynastic period for an origin of the Exodus legend. The city of Amarna collapsed very quickly after the death of Akhetaten. There would have been a large number of one true god types looking to relocate. They were all Phararoh's slaves because everyone living in the Egyptian empire around this time were Pharaoh's slaves. Many of elites, the priests in particular, would not have been welcome in the rest of Egypt.

One big problem with this hypothesis is the Jews wouldn't adopt monotheism for nearly another thousand years or so.     
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Offline Baruch

Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2018, 01:10:51 PM »
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I like the late 18th early 19th dynastic period for an origin of the Exodus legend. The city of Amarna collapsed very quickly after the death of Akhetaten. There would have been a large number of one true god types looking to relocate. They were all Phararoh's slaves because everyone living in the Egyptian empire around this time were Pharaoh's slaves. Many of elites, the priests in particular, would not have been welcome in the rest of Egypt.

One big problem with this hypothesis is the Jews wouldn't adopt monotheism for nearly another thousand years or so.     

Well not quite ... the idea that Jews are monotheist is propaganda ... same with Christians and Muslims.  But where did the puritanical propaganda of the official Torah come from?  This was circa 500 BCE ... whereas Akhenaten was circa 1350 BCE.  The origin of the Israelites (officially a tribal confederacy in Palestine circa 1200 BCE) was complex.  And until about 650 BCE, the Solomonic temple was polytheist (until the death of Canaanite queen Athaliah, daughter of Jezebel).  So Akhenaten is even more remarkable ... but only the folk memory would have survived.  A few people would still have written copies of the Great Hymn to the Aten.

Pure monotheism only dates to about 1000 CE, again among puritanical heretics.  Sufis, Kabbalists and proto-protestants.  Part of my study of Spanish Judeo-Arabic culture.  I am not sure that the adoption of strict monotheism is all that good an idea even now.  Orthodox Abrahmics are arguably not strict monotheist.  This is difficult even for more advanced Hindus and Buddhists.  And more than 500 years ago, the universe was a much smaller place ... Cosmos wasn't as big as it is now.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 01:51:28 PM by Baruch »
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Offline PopeyesPappy

Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2018, 01:26:27 PM »
I was under the impression that monotheism among Jews was well established by the start of the Christian era. Exactly when that started is up for debate, but at least one primary source, the Elephantine Papyri, are pretty good evidence that at least some Jews accepted the existence of multiple gods in the 4th century BCE. 13th century BCE to 4th century BCE = about a thousand years is where I got about a thousand years.

What have you got that says Jews were polytheistic until near the end of the first millennium CE?
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Offline Baruch

Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2018, 01:44:42 PM »
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I was under the impression that monotheism among Jews was well established by the start of the Christian era. Exactly when that started is up for debate, but at least one primary source, the Elephantine Papyri, are pretty good evidence that at least some Jews accepted the existence of multiple gods in the 4th century BCE. 13th century BCE to 4th century BCE = about a thousand years is where I got about a thousand years.

What have you got that says Jews were polytheistic until near the end of the first millennium CE?

Moses as a historical figure, would have been a henotheist under the tutelage of Jethro, priest of Midian (El Shaddai or Yah) ... with a strong Egyptian polytheist education.  Nomads tended to simplify their religion down to a few deities.  Not unlike a combination of Yuya the Apiru and The Story of Sinuhe ... the folk tale of an Egyptian doing Dances With Wolves among the Semites (an a precursor of Exodus).  Claims for monotheism came later in reaction to the destruction of the 2nd Temple ... but among the priesthood, monotheism was well established, starting with the puritanical racism of Ezra under Persian rule.  Among the common people, most never left Judah.  The Samaritans (who are called mud bloods by the Slytheren) are closer to Moses than either the Sadducees or Pharisees.  Of course the original Israelites were "a mixed multitude).  The regular folks never left Judah to Babylon or Assyria, they are the Am HaEretz ... people of the land aka 90% of the population, pagani (rural bumpkins).  See The Hebrew Goddess by Raphael Patai for more real history of the persistence of old Judean religion into  the Roman era.  From the Roman era forward it is called Kabbalah.

Christians in general and Catholics/Orthodox in particular, are henotheist, not monotheist.  What with "trinity" and demonology and angelology (important in Kabbalah and some parts of Islam).
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 01:53:45 PM by Baruch »
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Offline PopeyesPappy

Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2018, 03:15:10 PM »
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Moses as a historical figure, would have been a henotheist under the tutelage of Jethro, priest of Midian (El Shaddai or Yah) ... with a strong Egyptian polytheist education. 

Assuming the historical figure wasn't a of priest of the Great Temple of the Aten...  :wink:
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Offline Baruch

Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2018, 04:43:49 PM »
The Hebrew Goddess by Raphael Patai and the Aggadah (stories) in the Talmud (demonology and angelology).  One can cast doubt on the earliest document of Kabbalah, but not that rabbis were discussing it in the 1st and 2nd century CE.  And those were the puritans, not the common people.  There is anecdotal evidence that there was pluralistic worship at Abraham's tomb before the advent of official Christianity.  The influence of Greco-Roman hellenism is not only great (Pharisee argumentation, the NT etc) but the use of the Zodiac (originally Babylonian) in synagogue decoration and other violations of the anti-iconic policy at Dura Europus.

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Jewish practice was anything but uniform in the 1st century CE at least ... Josephus mentions over 20 different sects.  Certainly the Mandeans and the Samaritans are remains of those "variants" though it is said that in the 1st century CE, there were as many Samaritans as there were Judean zealots.  It took centuries for the Pharisee party (and Sadducee remnant allied to it) to apply its homogenizing policy (and it never quite succeeded).  There was a major break with the Karaite faction during the hey-day of Abbasid Baghdad, the Karaites rejecting rabbinic authority, under the loosening of support for the Babylonian community that had been so strong under the Persians.  And then the problem of what to do with all the illegitimate children (in Ezra's law view) of most of the Jewish people in the Roman Empire during the great oppression there.  Only the Kohanim were able to maintain purity.  And the few rare royal converts had to be dealt with (The Kurzari).  Kabbalah would have dated back to the "community of prophets" in Bible times, then controversial under the Persian/Greek/Roman domination (maintain status quo at all costs).  Like Sufism and Gnosticism generally, it had to be kept quiet about if it were practiced at all.

Of course Judaism in its many forms was never in a vacuum, it arose out of that came before it, in context with the powerful cultures around it.

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Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2018, 05:31:56 PM »
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(Petra may be the original Mecca)
You mean the Ka'aba might be this "Petra"!? Interesting! So "the Rock" is literally a rock. I like that idea.
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Re: Canaanite etc origins of the Bible
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2018, 05:44:18 PM »
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And more than 500 years ago, the universe was a much smaller place ... Cosmos wasn't as big as it is now.
Contrary to popular belief, the universe isn't really getting any bigger. It's always been infinitely large. But its density and temperature are decreasing, which does look to us like an expansion. Even our finite observable universe isn't growing, since the horizon is fixed. Eventually there will be only a single particle, if that, in all that space as the density and temperature decrease to very near zero (10^-29 degrees K). But the universe won't be any bigger.

:-)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 05:46:49 PM by Unbeliever »
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