Author Topic: Islam in America  (Read 2141 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2018, 12:30:40 PM »
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Marriage was for the woman's benefit? Uh, I don't think so. It may be that way now, but not in ancient times. Marriage was invented because men wanted to know who their children were, by having exclusive rights to their wives. That's why polygamy was a thing, and only with one man and multiple wives, never the other way around. The man could sleep around all he wanted. If his wives didn't excite him any more, he could find a prostitute to sleep with, then later stone her to death for being sexually promiscuous. Funny how Christians claim that the Bible says that marriage is between one man and one woman. From what I gather from the Bible, it sounds more like it's between one man, multiple wives, the wives' maidservants, and concubines.

Sorry ... but all people were property in ancient times.  Men belonged to their fathers.  Women also belonged to their father, and were lent to their husbands.  Hence the return policy on wives ;-)  So ... ancient people weren't enlightened?  Duh.  Most men never had more than one wife a time, rich men had concubines (women servants they slept with).  Sarah did rate higher than Hagar.  Polygamy wasn't common at all.  However if you were a widow, or a divorced woman without an ancestral home to return to, you had other problems.

You have a very negative view of ancient men.  All men are rapists?  Sounds like you are an Arab.  Or you think cavemen actually hit women on the head and kidnapped them.  Bride capture actually happened among the Kazakhs .. but that was exceptional.  In criminal groups, women were simply shared around, they weren't wives.  That is how you view ancient society .. basically a camel riding biker gang bang.  Abraham was rich, and Jacob was rich.  And David was rich (he was a bandit king) and Solomon was very rich (he was a great king).

Marriage in ancient Greece or Rome was quite a bit more civilized even than Arabia.  And if you messed with the wrong woman in Arabia, her men-folk would deal with you.  They still do.
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Offline Baruch

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2018, 12:34:30 PM »
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Have you listened to that Black pastor David Manning?
He is cross because Black men integrated with Europeans, and don't want to be Christian Black men.

Then you get the Israel Vision religion who say Jews are not Israel (they are Philistines, Samaritan Arabs), but the Whites are the lost 10 tribes of Israel.

Then there is the new Christian religion, Hebraic Messianic movements. They embrace the Jewish religion, but accept Jesus as God.

Religion is incredibly interesting, and I studied them all to find out why they differ so much, but all claim to be Christian.

Same with Islam.
An impostor religion who claim to be an extension of Christianity, but with a flashback to Judaism, and then total denial of both.

No don't know of him.  I can see why there is a dual-personality problem with people adopting religions from cultures not their own.  How could a Christianized-German Jew (Marx) conquer China?  I know Messianic Jews .. I worship with them, though I don't exactly share their theology.  I also know one local who takes English people as crypto-Jews (Ephraim and Manasseh).
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Offline Baruch

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2018, 12:38:44 PM »
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You know, mathematicians can have beliefs, but that doesn't mean that mathematics is a system of beliefs. You would never say that because I'm a mathematician and I have beliefs, that "I told you Mathematics is a religion!"

You are falsely attributing to atheism the beliefs that atheists hold. Being an atheist doesn't mean that I don't have some beliefs, they just don't come from atheism, because atheism is characterized by the lack of one particular belief — and doesn't say anything any other belief I may hold.

The practice of mathematics is demonstrable ... not a belief.  But philosophy of mathematics is not demonstrable ... it is a belief.  So is Pythagoras right or wrong?  That is a belief.  2+2=4 is demonstrable (count pebbles).  Just don't let a D or R do the counting.
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Online Hakurei Reimu

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2018, 01:31:21 PM »
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I believe in God, therefore I am by default a Christian.
Therefore Christianity is my religion, and Atheism yours.
Therefore not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Oh, wait. It isn't.

I don't believe in any god, and that includes yours, and therefore I'm an atheist. But that doesn't tell you a single other thing about me, just my stance on that belief. You don't know why I don't believe in your sky pixie, or what other beliefs I have, or any philosophical underpinning of my morality or reasoning, just from my descriptor of "atheism."

It does get galling to be in a situation akin to someone asking, "Which god do you believe in?" answering, "None," and get a response of, "Ah! You worship the God 'None'!" Makes you want to drive nails into a board with your forehead.

That's not to say there can't be atheistic religions; there are in fact plenty. Buddhism, for example, has quite a few traditions that do not ascribe to divine beings, although other traditions do. However, that just means that "atheistic" is a qualifier for a religion, just as much as Christianity is the name for a related family of religions.

And didn't you a while back say that Christianity requires accepting Jesus as divinity? Does that mean you've changed your stance on Jehova's witnesses?
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Re: Islam in America
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2018, 01:54:56 AM »
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You know, mathematicians can have beliefs, but that doesn't mean that mathematics is a system of beliefs. You would never say that because I'm a mathematician and I have beliefs, that "I told you Mathematics is a religion!"

You are falsely attributing to atheism the beliefs that atheists hold. Being an atheist doesn't mean that I don't have some beliefs, they just don't come from atheism, because atheism is characterized by the lack of one particular belief — and doesn't say anything any other belief I may hold.
Well, If you read what Hawkin said, he believes because there are Mathematics and Laws of Gravity, the Universe could spontaneously pop into existance.
Quite frankly, I do not have even a fraction of such religious belief such as Atheism has in science and Mathematics.

Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2018, 01:57:37 AM »
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Marriage was for the woman's benefit? Uh, I don't think so. It may be that way now, but not in ancient times. Marriage was invented because men wanted to know who their children were, by having exclusive rights to their wives. That's why polygamy was a thing, and only with one man and multiple wives, never the other way around. The man could sleep around all he wanted. If his wives didn't excite him any more, he could find a prostitute to sleep with, then later stone her to death for being sexually promiscuous. Funny how Christians claim that the Bible says that marriage is between one man and one woman. From what I gather from the Bible, it sounds more like it's between one man, multiple wives, the wives' maidservants, and concubines.
And the NT is clear on the ONE MAN ONE WIFE MARRIAGE.
Jesus also said God created one man and one women, but due to lust and sin they divorced.
Just so you know.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2018, 02:06:39 AM »
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One doesn't believe in...*sigh*  Okay, let me try to put this in the simplest way I possibly can.


WTF are you even talking about here?  "the philosophy of atheism is our identification on assimilation"???  Do you want some dressing for that word salad?

There are a great many theistic religions, so no, theists are not automatically Christians any more than pizzas are automatically deep-dish.
Garbage in, garbage out.
From my point of view, which I invite you to observe here with me on my balcony of Theism, I find it easy to believe in YHWH.
Stepping over to your balcony,
I have to believe in Evolution without any factual evidence,
Believe in a nothing, that popped into a Big Bang.
I have to believe in matter mixed into a primordial soup where molecules started to reproduce without any DNA, where it developed with mindless, unguided, blind processes into you who contains a Mind that also developed from unguided unintelligent mechanical processes into what you are.

Now, This is incredible belief, something I just can not fathom!

And you want me to believe you dont believe in anything, your beliefs is not a religion?

Back on my balcony, I am witness to you bowing down to ideologies, ones that does not differ from the Eastern Orthodox Church's Icons!


Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2018, 04:04:09 AM »
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From my point of view, which I invite you to observe here with me on my balcony of Theism, I find it easy to believe in YHWH.
Stepping over to your balcony,
I have to believe in Evolution without any factual evidence,
Believe in a nothing, that popped into a Big Bang.
I have to believe in matter mixed into a primordial soup where molecules started to reproduce without any DNA, where it developed with mindless, unguided, blind processes into you who contains a Mind that also developed from unguided unintelligent mechanical processes into what you are.

Now, This is incredible belief, something I just can not fathom!

And you want me to believe you dont believe in anything, your beliefs is not a religion?

Back on my balcony, I am witness to you bowing down to ideologies, ones that does not differ from the Eastern Orthodox Church's Icons!

I understand that attempting to describe atheism to you is like trying to describe color to a blind man.  Can faith describe color to a blind man?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #68 on: August 09, 2018, 06:33:08 AM »
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Well, If you read what Hawkin said, he believes because there are Mathematics and Laws of Gravity, the Universe could spontaneously pop into existance.
Quite frankly, I do not have even a fraction of such religious belief such as Atheism has in science and Mathematics.

People who don't understand the Big Bang ... make nonsense out of it, even professors.  Same as any other self proclaimed expert.  I have studied General Relativity since High School (differential geometry) and it is non-trivial, even if you accept just one of the possible models allowed by the equation.  Observational evidence pretty much identifies just one of the possible models as being right (single expansion that is slowly accelerating).  And I know this much, even if I am NOT an expert in that area.  The impact on my theology, by cosmology ... is nil.  Nature doesn't influence it at all.  Humanity is the basis for my interests, psychology is the basis for my theology.  There has been, since the time of Plato, a great effort in Judaism, Islam and even Christianity to de-Humanize religion, to naturalize it.  Not that I diss enjoying a night sky filled with stars.  As Apostle Paul said, G-d makes fools of the wise.

Neither scripture nor clergy have authority.  Man wasn't made for the Sabbath, the Sabbath was made for the man.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 06:35:27 AM by Baruch »
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Offline Baruch

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #69 on: August 09, 2018, 06:33:47 AM »
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I understand that attempting to describe atheism to you is like trying to describe color to a blind man.  Can faith describe color to a blind man?

Funny how that is an inversion of an argument made by theists against atheists.
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Online Hakurei Reimu

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #70 on: August 09, 2018, 10:59:19 AM »
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Well, If you read what Hawkin said, he believes because there are Mathematics and Laws of Gravity, the Universe could spontaneously pop into existance.
So? Hawking can read into mathematics and science just as much as you read into the bible. The individual is imperfect, and prone to various errors and prejudices. To help weed that kind of thing out is the reason why we have peer review. Until evidence appears to back that up, Hawking's belief remains just that — his belief.

Hawking has been demonstrated to be wrong before. While he is still held in high regard even after his death, we know that he wasn't perfect.

Quote
Quite frankly, I do not have even a fraction of such religious belief such as Atheism has in science and Mathematics.
Neither mathematics nor science is based on "faith." Individual mathematicians and scientists may have quasi-religious belief in particular things, but that's no problem so long as they don't advance them as definitely true in absence of evidence or proof. To my knowledge, Hawking has never advanced his belief that the universe came into existence spontaneously as a definite thing, but only has his personal belief and perhaps with some justification for it. It is intriguing, however, so it does garner some attention, but it is a matter that will actually be decided one way or another by evidence.
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Offline Hydra009

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #71 on: August 09, 2018, 11:21:10 AM »
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From my point of view, which I invite you to observe here with me on my balcony of Theism, I find it easy to believe in YHWH.
Good for you, I guess.  And I know you want me over there, just like I know why you want me over there.  Because your religion has a compulsion to spread your beliefs built into it.  And because non-belief is viewed as a threat.  Do yourself a favor and delve into why that is.

Quote
Stepping over to your balcony,
I have to believe in Evolution without any factual evidence,
Believe in a nothing, that popped into a Big Bang.
I have to believe in matter mixed into a primordial soup where molecules started to reproduce without any DNA, where it developed with mindless, unguided, blind processes into you who contains a Mind that also developed from unguided unintelligent mechanical processes into what you are.
Aren't you the straw-man guy?  Don't you find that title ironic?

Quote
Now, This is incredible belief, something I just can not fathom!
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Quote
And you want me to believe you dont believe in anything
...not what I said.  At all.

Quote
your beliefs is not a religion?
I have many beliefs, of course.  Just none that constitute a system of faith and worship of a divine being.  Is that really too difficult for you to fathom?

Quote
Back on my balcony, I am witness to you bowing down to ideologies, ones that does not differ from the Eastern Orthodox Church's Icons!
Your balcony has a really terrible view that doesn't let you see reality.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #72 on: August 12, 2018, 06:33:21 AM »
Discussing anything with mousetrap is like discussing clouds with a mole...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline pr126

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2018, 02:39:06 AM »
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Discussing anything with mousetrap is like discussing clouds with a mole...
Bad analogy. You cannot discus ANYTHING with a mole. :-)

Wind in the willows, perhaps?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 02:44:06 AM by pr126 »
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Re: Islam in America
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2018, 04:44:55 AM »
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People who don't understand the Big Bang ... make nonsense out of it, even professors.  Same as any other self proclaimed expert.  I have studied General Relativity since High School (differential geometry) and it is non-trivial, even if you accept just one of the possible models allowed by the equation.  Observational evidence pretty much identifies just one of the possible models as being right (single expansion that is slowly accelerating).  And I know this much, even if I am NOT an expert in that area.  The impact on my theology, by cosmology ... is nil.  Nature doesn't influence it at all.  Humanity is the basis for my interests, psychology is the basis for my theology.  There has been, since the time of Plato, a great effort in Judaism, Islam and even Christianity to de-Humanize religion, to naturalize it.  Not that I diss enjoying a night sky filled with stars.  As Apostle Paul said, G-d makes fools of the wise.

Neither scripture nor clergy have authority.  Man wasn't made for the Sabbath, the Sabbath was made for the man.
Oh, dont misunderstand my position on the Big Bang.
I dont have any problem with this scientific theory at all, and by reverse engineering the Red-shift, it is highly plausable, and a well founded theory that can explain the universe.
However, my opposition to what Atheists claim is that if the Big Bang occurred spontaneously, without any causation, it is impossible.
To follow their spin on how this Big Bang developed from nothing, is where I find their error!

To claim that there was a difference in mathematical structures, different Physics, and gravity before the Big Bang, simply means that they say:

There was nothing, but this nothing was energy, or gravity, or something else we dont know, but it must count as nothing.

They need to show 0=+1-1

This is where anti matter found its source.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

 

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