Author Topic: Islam in America  (Read 7373 times)

Offline SGOS

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2018, 04:45:45 AM »
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Beliefs?
What beliefs are these, so I can steer clear in offending others.
Too late.

Offline SGOS

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2018, 05:18:40 AM »
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They're not happy having the right to worship how they want, they want everyone else to live by their standards too. They try to claim ownership over marriage and decide who can or can't marry.
The marriage thing, be it gay or straight, puzzles me.  Although it didn't always.  At one time, I thought the marriage ceremony was the marriage, and had to be done by a minister, in public in front of your relatives.  I thought that license issued by the courthouse, was just some record keeping thing, and you couldn't have sex until after the minister officially pronounced you married. 

But there is nothing official about a representative of God sanctioning your marriage, although he and others might think he's the one marrying you.  Oh sure, there's lots of fal-der-rhal, and people getting drunk, and if you like parties, a marriage offers that.  But why do people think you are being married by the church?

You were married by the state.  The clerk at the window who stamps your license and verifies your signature is more important than the minister or the governor.  That's right.  Betty at the courthouse will take care of the whole thing for $15.  And that license is the big deal, not bla, bla, bla from the guy wearing the ornate robe.  But the church intercedes and gives the impression that, "No, no, no.  This is what makes you married, like they provide the last key that the process needs for completion, when it's the state document that gives you and your spouse special privileges and reassigns each of you as the official next of kin.  If there is ever a question about your marriage, the state document is the actual verification that the judge in court wants to see.

Offline pr126

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2018, 06:07:04 AM »
In the old days it was the church that kept all the records of births, marriages and deaths.
Those records are still kept.

Ancestry.com still gets their research from those, as well as the modern (state) records.

Only in modern times that the state started record keeping.




Offline SGOS

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2018, 06:45:02 AM »
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In the old days it was the church that kept all the records of births, marriages and deaths.
Those records are still kept.

Ancestry.com still gets their research from those, as well as the modern (state) records.

Only in modern times that the state started record keeping.
I have no doubt that at one time, it was all about the church, but not anymore.  Western civilization allows churches to do symbolic church stuff, but has taken a dim view of the church setting itself up as final arbiter.  The marriage ceremony is a tradition that harkens back to the old days, and people can still make as much of it as they want.  But the last thing that I want in my marriage is the church.  If it makes others happy to have their marriage blessed by a god, let them.  If they want to drill their well where the water witch says they can find water, I'm all for that too.

But I'll take my chances with secular rule of law and the tyranny of democracy.  I'd rather be accountable to a judge than some Mormon cabal.  Yeah, both are dicey and both are destined to fail, but talk about the lesser of two evils.  I like the new system better.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 09:35:45 AM by SGOS »

Offline Baruch

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2018, 06:53:22 AM »
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The marriage thing, be it gay or straight, puzzles me.  Although it didn't always.  At one time, I thought the marriage ceremony was the marriage, and had to be done by a minister, in public in front of your relatives.  I thought that license issued by the courthouse, was just some record keeping thing, and you couldn't have sex until after the minister officially pronounced you married. 

But there is nothing official about a representative of God sanctioning your marriage, although he and others might think he's the one marrying you.  Oh sure, there's lots of fal-der-rhal, and people getting drunk, and if you like parties, a marriage offers that.  But why do people think you are being married by the church?

You were married by the state.  The clerk at the window who stamps your license and verifies your signature is more important than the minister or the governor.  That's right.  Betty at the courthouse will take care of the whole thing for $15.  And that license is the big deal, not bla, bla, bla from the guy wearing the ornate robe.  But the church intercedes and gives the impression that, "No, no, no.  This is what makes you married, like they provide the last key that the process needs for completion, when it's the state document that gives you and your spouse special privileges and reassigns each of you as the official next of kin.  If there is ever a question about your marriage, the state document is the actual verification that the judge in court wants to see.

Marriage has been a contract since the days of Rome.  The religious part has always been an extra added on, because religious people want the sanction of the gods.  Usually it is a contract between families (Montagues and Capulets).  Dating was forbidden, to keep the young women in virgin condition.  You would only have assignations with "keepers" to make sure nothing was done or said that was untoward.  Often a marriage broker would be involved (aka bride seller).  The idea of big church weddings is a Victorian cultural tradition ... it didn't exist in Colonial America.  And we know how hypocritical our Victorian ancestors were.

Jewish marriage in the Bible was the same, there was a contract negotiated between families (otherwise they were common-law married aka fornicating).  The engagement went on for a year, and then the bride moved into the house of her father-in-law, where the groom lived.  The idea of the nuclear family is recent.

One reason for the "legal" wedding is to protect the woman, in fact the idea of formal marriage is a woman's idea.  Men would simply sleep around like animals.  Part of the usual contract was the dowry.  This was provided by the father of the bride, it was his daughter's social security.  But the control of it would pass from the father of the bride to the groom.  If a divorce occurs, the groom/groom's family has to return the girl and the dowry to her family of origin.  People used to be ... civilized.  We mistake anarchy for liberty.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 06:56:41 AM by Baruch »
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2018, 06:55:28 AM »
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I have no doubt that at one time, it was all about the church, but not anymore.  Western civilization allows churches to do symbolic church stuff, but has taken a dim view of the church setting itself up as final arbiter.  The marriage ceremony is a tradition that harkens back to the old days, and people can still make as much of it as they want.  But the last thing that I want in my marriage is the church.  If it makes others happy to have their marriage blessed by a god, let them.  If they want to drill their well where the water witch says they can find water, I'm all for that too.

But I'll take my chances with secular rule of law and the tyranny of democracy.  I'd rather be accountable to a judge that some Mormon cabal.  Yeah, both are dicey and both are destined to fail, but talk about the lesser of two evils.  I like the new system better.

Tyranny of democracy coming ... Senate Democrats working on proposals to totally regulate Internet (as it is in China) in order to protect us from Russian spies like Boris and Natasha.  Meanwhile it has been admitted that Senator Diane Feinstein kept a Chinese spy on her staff for 20 years (until he retired).
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2018, 07:05:29 AM »
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Too late.
Wow!
You realized soon enough that the Mouse trap almost snapped your neck!
Just imagine how the Mousetrap would have asked if you said you believed in Atheism: "I told you Atheism is a religion!"

Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2018, 07:07:28 AM »
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In the old days it was the church that kept all the records of births, marriages and deaths.
Those records are still kept.

Ancestry.com still gets their research from those, as well as the modern (state) records.

Only in modern times that the state started record keeping.
Nicely answered.
I did not even think about that.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Offline Baruch

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2018, 07:10:39 AM »
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Nicely answered.
I did not even think about that.

Adding, if you are concerned that Christianity in Africa is ... Africanized (think bees) ... then you don't understand America.  Christianity is Americanized in America.  Basically they are pagan Romans larping as Jewish wannabes ... as they have for 1700 years now.

Though, in so far as early Christianity originated in Egypt ... it was African from the beginning.  The average Christian today, is non-White for the first time in 1700 years (Constantine used White-in, not White-out).
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 12:31:15 PM by Baruch »
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2018, 07:30:00 AM »
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Adding, if you are concerned that Christianity in African is ... Africanized (think bees) ... then you don't understand America.  Christianity is Americanized in America.  Basically they are pagan Romans larping as Jewish wannabes ... as they have for 1700 years now.

Though, in so far as early Christianity originated in Egypt ... it was African from the beginning.  The average Christian today, is non-White for the first time in 1700 years (Constantine used White-in, not White-out).
Have you listened to that Black pastor David Manning?
He is cross because Black men integrated with Europeans, and don't want to be Christian Black men.

Then you get the Israel Vision religion who say Jews are not Israel (they are Philistines, Samaritan Arabs), but the Whites are the lost 10 tribes of Israel.

Then there is the new Christian religion, Hebraic Messianic movements. They embrace the Jewish religion, but accept Jesus as God.

Religion is incredibly interesting, and I studied them all to find out why they differ so much, but all claim to be Christian.

Same with Islam.
An impostor religion who claim to be an extension of Christianity, but with a flashback to Judaism, and then total denial of both.

Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2018, 08:20:05 AM »
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Wow!
You realized soon enough that the Mouse trap almost snapped your neck!
Just imagine how the Mousetrap would have asked if you said you believed in Atheism: "I told you Atheism is a religion!"


You know, mathematicians can have beliefs, but that doesn't mean that mathematics is a system of beliefs. You would never say that because I'm a mathematician and I have beliefs, that "I told you Mathematics is a religion!"

You are falsely attributing to atheism the beliefs that atheists hold. Being an atheist doesn't mean that I don't have some beliefs, they just don't come from atheism, because atheism is characterized by the lack of one particular belief β€” and doesn't say anything any other belief I may hold.
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
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Re: Islam in America
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2018, 09:56:01 AM »
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You know, mathematicians can have beliefs, but that doesn't mean that mathematics is a system of beliefs. You would never say that because I'm a mathematician and I have beliefs, that "I told you Mathematics is a religion!"

You are falsely attributing to atheism the beliefs that atheists hold. Being an atheist doesn't mean that I don't have some beliefs, they just don't come from atheism, because atheism is characterized by the lack of one particular belief β€” and doesn't say anything any other belief I may hold.
I still dont get it.
Dont you believe in atheism?
or do you?
or you dont believe in a god, therefore the philosophy of Atheism is our identification on assimilation.
And because you do not believe in God, you are by default an Atheist.

I believe in God, therefore I am by default a Christian.
Therefore Christianity is my religion, and Atheism yours.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2018, 10:43:23 AM »
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Marriage has been a contract since the days of Rome.  The religious part has always been an extra added on, because religious people want the sanction of the gods.  Usually it is a contract between families (Montagues and Capulets).  Dating was forbidden, to keep the young women in virgin condition.  You would only have assignations with "keepers" to make sure nothing was done or said that was untoward.  Often a marriage broker would be involved (aka bride seller).  The idea of big church weddings is a Victorian cultural tradition ... it didn't exist in Colonial America.  And we know how hypocritical our Victorian ancestors were.

Jewish marriage in the Bible was the same, there was a contract negotiated between families (otherwise they were common-law married aka fornicating).  The engagement went on for a year, and then the bride moved into the house of her father-in-law, where the groom lived.  The idea of the nuclear family is recent.

One reason for the "legal" wedding is to protect the woman, in fact the idea of formal marriage is a woman's idea.  Men would simply sleep around like animals.  Part of the usual contract was the dowry.  This was provided by the father of the bride, it was his daughter's social security.  But the control of it would pass from the father of the bride to the groom.  If a divorce occurs, the groom/groom's family has to return the girl and the dowry to her family of origin.  People used to be ... civilized.  We mistake anarchy for liberty.

Marriage was for the woman's benefit? Uh, I don't think so. It may be that way now, but not in ancient times. Marriage was invented because men wanted to know who their children were, by having exclusive rights to their wives. That's why polygamy was a thing, and only with one man and multiple wives, never the other way around. The man could sleep around all he wanted. If his wives didn't excite him any more, he could find a prostitute to sleep with, then later stone her to death for being sexually promiscuous. Funny how Christians claim that the Bible says that marriage is between one man and one woman. From what I gather from the Bible, it sounds more like it's between one man, multiple wives, the wives' maidservants, and concubines.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Offline SGOS

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2018, 11:45:54 AM »
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I believe in God, therefore I am by default a Christian.
Therefore Christianity is my religion, and Atheism yours.
If that was an attempt to construct a syllogism, it's the worst one I've ever seen.

Offline Hydra009

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2018, 11:46:01 AM »
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I still dont get it.
Dont you believe in atheism?
One doesn't believe in...*sigh*  Okay, let me try to put this in the simplest way I possibly can.

When you were a kid, you were probably taught that Santa exists and brings presents for Christmas.  Eventually, you came to the conclusion that this story was bullshit and Santa doesn't really exist, he's just a fictional character.  Not believing in Santa is not a belief system - you don't believe in a-santaism.  There's no common creed or anything.  It's just a stance on the Santa story - you don't believe it, some people do.  That's it.  You might believe in lots of other stuff - space aliens, bigfoot, etc - but you don't necessarily hold those beliefs in common with other people who are a bit skeptical on the Santa story.

Quote
or do you?
or you dont believe in a god, therefore the philosophy of Atheism is our identification on assimilation.
WTF are you even talking about here?  "the philosophy of atheism is our identification on assimilation"???  Do you want some dressing for that word salad?

Quote
And because you do not believe in God, you are by default an Atheist.
That part is actually 100% correct.

Quote
I believe in God, therefore I am by default a Christian.
There are a great many theistic religions, so no, theists are not automatically Christians any more than pizzas are automatically deep-dish.

Quote
Therefore Christianity is my religion, and Atheism yours.
Garbage in, garbage out.

 

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