Author Topic: Islam in America  (Read 2052 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2018, 07:39:54 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Wrong.  Why do you choose to throw Marxism into a simple exchange?  Is the water not muddy enough for you?

Lots of Maduro supporters here.  Bernie Double-Cross and Red Cortez supporters.

The point is, people here claim to be fact based.  In religion they mostly are.  But that is as far as their fact-checking goes.  That and biased Snopes.
שלום

Offline SGOS

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2018, 10:13:38 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Lots of Maduro supporters here.  Bernie Double-Cross and Red Cortez supporters.

The point is, people here claim to be fact based.  In religion they mostly are.  But that is as far as their fact-checking goes.  That and biased Snopes.
People have opinions.  Ideologies are the outcome of opinions, usually about how to run things.  As such they are not facts.  They are neither right or wrong.  They are opinions.  Some may or may not work better than others, but all have flaws.  Being human we all have ideologies, because we all have beliefs about different things, but we don't have to have beliefs about everything, and we don't have to have ideologies about everything; Nor should we.  Atheism is one of those things that does not require a belief or an ideology.  It's the result of an empty space.  Not believing in a god is an empty space, but there is no psychological dynamic that requires an empty space to be filled, except in some peoples' minds.

Marxism or socialism are ideologies based on beliefs, and they are a separate issue from atheism, and partly why I was befuddled by you bringing Marxism into the discussion.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 10:16:28 PM by SGOS »

Offline pr126

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2018, 11:38:43 PM »
Quote
Marxism or socialism are ideologies based on beliefs, and they are a separate issue from atheism, and partly why I was befuddled by you bringing Marxism into the discussion.
Well, in my opinion, - note this is just an opinion - atheist are more prone to  Marxism than the religious.

Or put it another way, almost all Marxist/Communist are also atheists. So yes, there is a link.






 
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 12:16:33 AM by pr126 »
"Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their free will."
 - Joseph Goebbels

Offline SGOS

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2018, 12:59:56 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Well, in my opinion, - note this is just an opinion - atheist are more prone to  Marxism than the religious.

Or put it another way, almost all Marxist/Communist are also atheists. So yes, there is a link. 
OK fair enough, but so what?  Theists are more prone to theocracy, and theocrats are almost all theists.  My point was that in the context of the comments in question,...

Quote
Mouse:
atheists only believe they don't believe.

Me:
Wow!  You probably thought you've come up with a new theist insight, but it's a just a baseless claim from 60 years ago.  Maybe you can start a new wave of recycled bullshit, and start your own cult.

Baruch:
but ideology is fine provided it is Marxist, right?

...Baruch's comment makes little sense.  I was just telling Mouse he has no idea what he's talking about by claiming, "Atheists really believe in God; They just believe they don't."  It's one of the oldest and most idiotic tropes theists ever came up with.  So Baruch jumps in the middle and implies I approve of Marx when I have never given anyone any indication of that.  How does that relate to the exchange?  But you're right.  I should have just told him to fuck off.

Offline pr126

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2018, 01:15:24 AM »
Quote
OK fair enough, but so what?  Theists are more prone to theocracy, and theocrats are almost all theists.  My point was that in the context of the comments in question,...
There is far more chance to get Marxism/socialism in America than theocracy.
No need for panic attacks just yet.


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Be careful what you wish for. You might just get it.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 01:26:19 AM by pr126 »
"Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their free will."
 - Joseph Goebbels

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2018, 01:40:59 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There is far more chance to get Marxism/socialism in America than theocracy.
No need for panic attacks just yet.


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Be careful what you wish for. You might just get it.

...Did you just link Fox News unironically?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 01:48:58 AM by Blackleaf »
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Offline pr126

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2018, 01:59:30 AM »

Why is it that Dems are so afraid of different opinions?

Living in an echo chamber? Where is the Tolerance, Inclusiveness?

Everything not Democrat orthodoxy is deemed heresy?
Try to come to terms with reality. Not everybody agrees to your politics.
"Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their free will."
 - Joseph Goebbels

Offline SGOS

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2018, 02:05:11 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There is far more chance to get Marxism/socialism in America than theocracy.
I have indeed sensed that Democrats are moving to the left at a faster rate in the last two years than I have seen in 30 years.  But don't make too much of that, because in the last 30 years, the party has been moving to the right, and accelerating too.  It's only the constituency that I sense starting to move to the left, while the Party basically ignores them.

Living in England, you probably realize the US is far more religious than the UK, but I don't think you fully grasp how religious it actually is, and in the last 30 years, religion has edged more and more toward the fanatical.  There has been a recent exodus from organized religions in the polls, but most of that movement is composed of theists, who seem to be tired of various aspects, probably mostly about wanting to more freedom of thought and opinion, and they just want to believe and get along.  But the exodus is not huge.  Personally, I've never met one of those who say they have left organized religion.

And unlike the UK, politicians here either fall all over themselves wooing the evangelicals, or try to dodge demands for more God in Government without really pointing out the meaning of separation of church and state.  And most Christians here feel they have a right to make the rest of country to bow to their demands.

Also, if you want a clear picture of what it's really like here, FOX news isn't something you should pay close attention to.  All the news carries an element of propaganda here, even those that are generally trusted as accurate, but FOX is profoundly editorial opinion.  Almost to the point where it's hard to really justify calling it news.  There's a lot of people here that believe it for sure, but that Utube you offered is typical of FOX's grossly exaggerated picture of what's happening on the left.  Sure things like that happen, but FOX cherry picks it's reports to scare the Hell out of the right, and the lunatic fringe loves it.

The religious right is much more of a threat than the Bolsheviks by a long shot.  Don't misjudge that. 
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 02:06:44 AM by SGOS »

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2018, 03:17:52 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
OK fair enough, but so what?  Theists are more prone to theocracy, and theocrats are almost all theists.  My point was that in the context of the comments in question,...

...Baruch's comment makes little sense.  I was just telling Mouse he has no idea what he's talking about by claiming, "Atheists really believe in God; They just believe they don't."  It's one of the oldest and most idiotic tropes theists ever came up with.  So Baruch jumps in the middle and implies I approve of Marx when I have never given anyone any indication of that.  How does that relate to the exchange?  But you're right.  I should have just told him to fuck off.

SGOS, I want to commend you, for what my opinion is worth, on your level of thought.
Dont think I am sarcastic, on the contrary, I really mean it.
However, I also think you should attempt to stay away from slants as "bullshit" and so on.
It damages your communicative channeling, and steers the reader away from what you intend to explain.

However, because I am used to be spoken to in this way, I am able to ignore these small infringements, and to note your thinking.

Now, back to the point.
I do not say that Atheists are believers of God, on the contrary, I know Atheists do not believe in God at all!
Period!

But one thing no atheist can get away on this claim is that they are not honest to their conscience in such a claim that their point of stance, is that their position is not religious.

It is just that!
Let me demonstrate.

To know something does not exist, is fact!
...but to walk around looking for evidence that something does not exist, is actually evidence that such a practicing atheist is unsecured on his point of view!
To try to show in Biology, Evolution, RI Dating, Biblical criticism, and any other means atheists needs to show that the Bible is wrong and Christians are deluded, is an effort to sooth the mind.

Also, to ignore any apologetic answers supplied by Bible scholars, is to deny an answer which the Atheist anyway know was incorrect the moment he engauged in constructing anti Biblical straw men.

To conclude, Atheism is a blind faith, something I as a Bible believing christian, ex atheist, can not get over my heart to accept as fact.

greetings.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 03:21:00 AM by Mousetrap »
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2018, 03:26:28 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I have indeed sensed that Democrats are moving to the left at a faster rate in the last two years than I have seen in 30 years.  But don't make too much of that, because in the last 30 years, the party has been moving to the right, and accelerating too.  It's only the constituency that I sense starting to move to the left, while the Party basically ignores them.

Living in England, you probably realize the US is far more religious than the UK, but I don't think you fully grasp how religious it actually is, and in the last 30 years, religion has edged more and more toward the fanatical.  There has been a recent exodus from organized religions in the polls, but most of that movement is composed of theists, who seem to be tired of various aspects, probably mostly about wanting to more freedom of thought and opinion, and they just want to believe and get along.  But the exodus is not huge.  Personally, I've never met one of those who say they have left organized religion.

And unlike the UK, politicians here either fall all over themselves wooing the evangelicals, or try to dodge demands for more God in Government without really pointing out the meaning of separation of church and state.  And most Christians here feel they have a right to make the rest of country to bow to their demands.

Also, if you want a clear picture of what it's really like here, FOX news isn't something you should pay close attention to.  All the news carries an element of propaganda here, even those that are generally trusted as accurate, but FOX is profoundly editorial opinion.  Almost to the point where it's hard to really justify calling it news.  There's a lot of people here that believe it for sure, but that Utube you offered is typical of FOX's grossly exaggerated picture of what's happening on the left.  Sure things like that happen, but FOX cherry picks it's reports to scare the Hell out of the right, and the lunatic fringe loves it.

The religious right is much more of a threat than the Bolsheviks by a long shot.  Don't misjudge that.
Friend, Living in a socialist and Marxist country, as I do, is the evidence that your claim might be a bit bias and exaggerated.
I perceive the USA as secular, but with a huge base of Christianity.
This is what makes the USA a safe haven where Atheists, gays, Muslims and who ever wants to live in.

If it is not because of the Christian base of the USA, there will be no difference between it and Venezuela!

Guys, please open your eyes and see how rotten the Marxist countries turned out to be.
Do not preach to me on how bad a Christian country will be, and how wonderful socialism is!
This is a fallicy, and ignorance.

Accept that a Christian country is safe.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Offline Baruch

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2018, 03:53:14 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Well, in my opinion, - note this is just an opinion - atheist are more prone to  Marxism than the religious.

Or put it another way, almost all Marxist/Communist are also atheists. So yes, there is a link.

Indirect link.  People oppose their society for various reasons.  For example: People who oppose society, oppose their government.  People who oppose society, oppose their religion (almost all societies are religious).  Only communist societies (not even Nazis) are anti-religious (because of ideology competition).  Does that imply that anarchism goes with theocracy?  No.  One doesn't drive the other, they are driven by a common cause (variously expressed).  Does that imply that communism goes with atheism?  Only in one direction ... communism is pro-atheism, but atheism isn't necessarily pro-communist.  So direction of cause/effect and immediate or shared cause ... complicate things.

And the socialism = communism is another argument for elsewhere (Bernie and Red Cortez, as I posted, aren't even Left socialist, they are Right socialist .... just like Hillary).




« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 04:08:19 AM by Baruch »
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2018, 03:58:09 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Wrong.  Why do you choose to throw Marxism into a simple exchange?  Is the water not muddy enough for you?

To clarify, it was a rhetorical question, not requiring an answer.  Also I am not implying that all atheists are communists.  See more detailed response to pr126.

OK, trying to be explicit ... non-rhetorical.  Ideology is a choice,.  So is theology.  I agree that theology is questionable.  Most here don't agree that ideology is questionable.  The question to me is, skepticism only extends to theology (and any ideology you disagree with) but doesn't extend to ideologies you do agree with.  One is free to make that choice or any other choice.  I agree (contrary to some) that theology and ideology aren't the same thing.

So why do people agree with some ideologies instead of rejecting all of them?  Most people here reject all theologies instead of some of them.  I see no reason not to be completely skeptical of both.  No, not muddying the water, but the subject is an inherent muddle puddle.
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2018, 04:03:57 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Why is it that Dems are so afraid of different opinions?

Living in an echo chamber? Where is the Tolerance, Inclusiveness?

Everything not Democrat orthodoxy is deemed heresy?
Try to come to terms with reality. Not everybody agrees to your politics.

There is one true politics, and it is Progressive (sarc).  And Democrat = Progressive (sarc).  Therefore one-party politics, with extreme ideological policing, is simply the right thing to do (sarc).  Just an extension of the New England psychosis from Salem days (see Cavebear).  Cotton Mather = "name any D-pol calling Trump a traitor".  I am surprised they don't want to burn Trump at the stake, or at least dunk him bound and gagged in a river to see if he floats (witchcraft).  Well maybe it isn't religious,  But politics comes from the same dark place as religion.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 04:10:31 AM by Baruch »
שלום

Offline pr126

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2018, 08:32:55 AM »
Baruch wrote:
Quote
...Most people here reject all theologies instead of some of them.


I would say not exactly.

Criticizing Islam is denigrating Muslims. That is Islamophobic, bigoted and hateful. Some say racist even.

All other religions are free for all to criticize.
"Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their free will."
 - Joseph Goebbels

Offline SGOS

Re: Islam in America
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2018, 08:34:12 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
To conclude, Atheism is a blind faith, something I as a Bible believing christian, ex atheist, can not get over my heart to accept as fact.
You're wrong.  You don't know you're wrong, because it's inconceivable to you that others do not have faith, let alone blind faith, so you make the assumption that they do.  I accept your faith is honest, and I'll guess as an atheist you acted on faith because you were that kind of an atheist.  You might have even been a blind faith atheist.  The psychological mechanism for seeing in others what you see in yourself is called projection.  You operate on faith and conclude that it's normal, probably because you never experienced absence of faith, and then project that behavior onto everyone else.  In some cases, you are right.  In other cases, you are wrong, because you are projecting a generalization that does not hold true across the board.

I recognize that some atheists can have faith that there is no god.  They are distant cousins, so I include them in my camp, but most atheists do not have the assurance offered by faith.  Some don't need the assurance of faith because they don't see the issue as worth thinking about in the first place.  It requires no faith to toss off god anymore than it takes to toss off Martians or flying teapots.

Faith is inherent in religion.  It's even demanded, and then it is tested with the query in a booming voice, "Do you believe.  Do you REALLY BELIEVE?!"  Imagine a voice emanating as though from the clouds.  That's the importance of faith in religion.  You must have it, or be DOOMED TO THE FIRES.  How deep is your faith?  Do you REALLY HAVE FAITH?!  Faith is not required for people who just want to live their lives and make sense out of their environment the best they can.  But it is paramount in religion.  Not all theists acquire the amount of faith demanded by their peers, but oddly most of them are not struck by lightening.  And faith is simply not required in areas of other human endeavors.
[/quote]

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk