Political Compass, Obama Basically Romney

[FrankDK]

> It is a very sad commentary on the quality of Obama that the only argument in his favor is "the other guy is worse."

True.  It's an artifact of the two-party "system" we use.  Neither candidate is free to articulate the real problems facing the country, much less advocate reasonable solutions to them.  The right wing media lie and cover for the furthest to the right, and the centrist media are branded "socialist" by the right wing.

As long as voters can be so easily fooled, we'll have fools for leaders.

Frank

[Shiranu]

...and the centrist media are branded "socialist" by the right wing.

Shit, not even the right wing. There are people (one in this thread, apparently), who are "liberal" and actually think Obama is a progressive/liberal.

I blame it less on the two-party system and more on the fact that American culture is a far-right culture. I think the two feed off each other... the politicians and the media drift further and further right, and the people drift further right... encouraging the politicians to go even FURTHER right.

[caseagainstfaith]

I think Shiranu and mykcob could stand to take a chill.

But, sure "healthcare reform" has been tossed around for decades.  Even Nixon considered national healthcare, I understand.  But, I don't think that anything that can be called in some way "healthcare reform" automatically is termed Progressive.

I'm no expert in the bill.  To my limited weak understanding, it is better than many progressive critics understand or realize.  But it is still a lot closer to a Republican solution than a progressive one.

[Smartmarzipan]

Would it be wrong of me to toss in the issue of the NSA spying on Americans because I'm loving this thread?

Obama administration defends massive phone record collection
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/ ... 2920130606

PRISM: Here's how the NSA wiretapped the Internet
http://www.zdnet.com/prism-heres-how-th ... 000016565/


*runs*

[Smartmarzipan]

> It is a very sad commentary on the quality of Obama that the only argument in his favor is "the other guy is worse."

True.  It's an artifact of the two-party "system" we use.  Neither candidate is free to articulate the real problems facing the country, much less advocate reasonable solutions to them.  The right wing media lie and cover for the furthest to the right, and the centrist media are branded "socialist" by the right wing.

As long as voters can be so easily fooled, we'll have fools for leaders.

Frank

Is this where I get on my soapbox and ask for more people to vote Third Party? Because....they should.

[Shiranu]

Sorry, like I said... when people think that, because of my political affiliation, I should excuse the murder of 176 children (IIRC the last number I saw had it up to 400+ between Pakistan & Yemen)...violations of human rights... a government that is becoming more and more like Mexico with how corrupt it is... the harsh crackdown on whistle blowers like Manning and Snowden... that I should support Guantanamo... a police state the values beating protesters instead of listening to them... that I should excuse all these things because the president is a fraction more progressive than the opposition? Fuck that, and fuck him.

And then to claim that it is ME that is the ignorant one, the cynical one... that I am just being an Obama hater because I won't hop on the bandwagon and support every thing he does and never hold him responsible for any bad policy? No thank you.

[FrankDK]

> Is this where I get on my soapbox and ask for more people to vote Third Party? Because....they should.

Your point is well-taken.  However, unless the third party is likely to win, it just means taking votes away from the lesser of two evils, increasing the likelihood that the worse will win.

Frank

[mykcob4]

Sorry, like I said... when people think that, because of my political affiliation, I should excuse the murder of 176 children (IIRC the last number I saw had it up to 400+ between Pakistan & Yemen)...violations of human rights... a government that is becoming more and more like Mexico with how corrupt it is... the harsh crackdown on whistle blowers like Manning and Snowden... that I should support Guantanamo... a police state the values beating protesters instead of listening to them... that I should excuse all these things because the president is a fraction more progressive than the opposition? Fuck that, and fuck him.

And then to claim that it is ME that is the ignorant one, the cynical one... that I am just being an Obama hater because I won't hop on the bandwagon and support every thing he does and never hold him responsible for any bad policy? No thank you.

Oh for crying out loud Manning had a course of action if he didn't agree with what was going on but he chose to commit a crime, the same with Snowden, but Snowden decided to even go further and sell secrets to China.
BTW for a supposed atheist you sure refer to christ alot!
I never asked you to support Obama or hop on any bandwagon, but I did say that you calling Obama a republican or a conservative was wrong. You got bent out of shape about it. You didn't submit ANY facts of Obama committing ANY crime. You said that Obama should do things that are clearly impossible to do in the time that YOU want them done. You discounted the things that he has done even though they are landmark in their scale.
By all means don't jump on a band wagon but before you shoot your mouth off know about the subject you are talking about.
Okay children in Yeman got killed and that is a tragedy. I fought in wars. I know how it goes. Sometimes that is unavoidavle. You think that any children got killed in Panama and Grenada? I assure you they did. Some of them innocent and some holding and firing weapons.
And this nation isn't anything like Mexico not even close.

[Shiranu]

Oh for crying out loud Manning had a course of action if he didn't agree with what was going on but he chose to commit a crime, the same with Snowden, but Snowden decided to even go further and sell secrets to China.

Yes, the crime of reveling government corruption and crime. The crime of, if you say we are committing a crime, you are a criminal.

1984... hello? Yes, you want your plot back?

BTW for a supposed atheist you sure refer to christ alot!

Thank you.

I never asked you to support Obama or hop on any bandwagon, but I did say that you calling Obama a republican or a conservative was wrong. You got bent out of shape about it. You didn't submit ANY facts of Obama committing ANY crime.

Ah, but alas I did, as did several other posters. Just because you ignore facts doesn't mean the facts weren't presented.

You said that Obama should do things that are clearly impossible to do in the time that YOU want them done. You discounted the things that he has done even though they are landmark in their scale.

No, I said he should stick to his promises and put pressure on people who obstruct him, not bend down and give them everything they want.

No, I discounted the things that are only landmark if you are a conservative.

No, I simply said that he makes promises and then does the exact opposite.

And this nation isn't anything like Mexico not even close.

You're right, I suppose... we at least pretend to give the people a voice and representation.

[mykcob4]

Oh for crying out loud Manning had a course of action if he didn't agree with what was going on but he chose to commit a crime, the same with Snowden, but Snowden decided to even go further and sell secrets to China.

Yes, the crime of reveling government corruption and crime. The crime of, if you say we are committing a crime, you are a criminal.

1984... hello? Yes, you want your plot back?

BTW for a supposed atheist you sure refer to christ alot!

Thank you.

I never asked you to support Obama or hop on any bandwagon, but I did say that you calling Obama a republican or a conservative was wrong. You got bent out of shape about it. You didn't submit ANY facts of Obama committing ANY crime.

Ah, but alas I did, as did several other posters. Just because you ignore facts doesn't mean the facts weren't presented.

You said that Obama should do things that are clearly impossible to do in the time that YOU want them done. You discounted the things that he has done even though they are landmark in their scale.

No, I said he should stick to his promises and put pressure on people who obstruct him, not bend down and give them everything they want.

No, I discounted the things that are only landmark if you are a conservative.

No, I simply said that he makes promises and then does the exact opposite.

And this nation isn't anything like Mexico not even close.

You're right, I suppose... we at least pretend to give the people a voice and representation.

Revealing secrets is a crime. Both Manning and Snowden revealed something that was perfectly LEGAL. Anyway no one that works for the government has to obey an unlawful order and is required to report it to their superior. If that person is complicent in the alledged crime then you are required to go up the later until you report it to the person that is not involved with the alledged crime.
For example Snowden could have and should have reported it to his congressman instead of spilling secrets.
I get frustrated at the speed that Obama moves and that he does reach out to the obstructionist/conservaturds but that is HOW politics works. One of the best Liberals in history...LBJ, did his best work by making deals and negotiating. One of the reasons the Kennedys picked LBJ as vice prez, is because of the dealing power he wielded in congress.
Hey basically I'm on your side. I am a true Liberal Progressive. I hate anything and everything conservative. I am a 22 year vet of the USMC and you'd be surprized just how many of us are true liberals, but we also have experience working within the system. Sometimes that system is painfully slow. Somethings are just shitty, like holding a kid hemoraging from a grenade that YOU(I) threw in a house, but somethings cannot be helped. I am not asking you to jump on the Obama bandwagon, I am truly not. What I am saying is that Obama is nothing like the repukes and conservaturds. He isn't trying to dismantle workers rights. Hes not trying to refight the civil war. Among other things that the corrupt corporate owned conservaturds are trying to do.

[caseagainstfaith]

Hey basically I'm on your side. I am a true Liberal Progressive. I hate anything and everything conservative. I am a 22 year vet of the USMC and you'd be surprized just how many of us are true liberals, but we also have experience working within the system. Sometimes that system is painfully slow. Somethings are just shitty, like holding a kid hemoraging from a grenade that YOU(I) threw in a house, but somethings cannot be helped. I am not asking you to jump on the Obama bandwagon, I am truly not. What I am saying is that Obama is nothing like the repukes and conservaturds. He isn't trying to dismantle workers rights. Hes not trying to refight the civil war. Among other things that the corrupt corporate owned conservaturds are trying to do.

Hey, just thought I'd say I appreciate this post.  I see things perhaps in-between the two of you, overall probably closer to him than you, but, hey, at least this is more constructive.  Thanks.

[Shiranu]

Revealing secrets is a crime. Both Manning and Snowden revealed something that was perfectly LEGAL.

So Manning's revealing video of soldiers mowing down civilians (including a BBC journalist) that was then buried by higher ups to avoid responsibility was reveling something legal?

For example Snowden could have and should have reported it to his congressman instead of spilling secrets.

There were 4 (I believe NSA or FBI, I will try to find the article again) people who went through legal channels to reveal corruption. They now face a combined 35 years in prison. The system is not set up to protect the people who report crimes, it is set up to protect the people who to commit them... because the people committing them are the one's writing the laws.

That is why what Manning and Snowden have done is a necessity... because if they went through the legal channels they would be arrested.

.LBJ, did his best work by making deals and negotiating. One of the reasons the Kennedys picked LBJ as vice prez, is because of the dealing power he wielded in congress.

I like LBJ, I grew up in his neck of the woods. But LBJ's strategy was to force the other side to submit to HIS demands, not to submit to THEIR demands. That is why I have much respect for him... he didn't compromise his morals for political gain. Foreign policy wise I think he was terrible, but domestically he had a spine... something Obama has so far yet to show.

Hey basically I'm on your side. I am a true Liberal Progressive. I hate anything and everything conservative. I am a 22 year vet of the USMC and you'd be surprized just how many of us are true liberals, but we also have experience working within the system.

I just have a hard time seeing that when you find Obamacare a progressive policy.

That said, I do know much of the military is liberal; my (adopted) family is 4 generation military... I pretty much grew up at BAMC and Lackland AFB.

I am not asking you to jump on the Obama bandwagon, I am truly not. What I am saying is that Obama is nothing like the repukes and conservaturds. He isn't trying to dismantle workers rights. Hes not trying to refight the civil war. Among other things that the corrupt corporate owned conservaturds are trying to do.

I apologize for that, when I said Republicans I mean the moderates; not the Louis Gomerts (spelling?)... and my brain is blank atm of the nutjobs names. But his policies are not drastically different from the Republican's basic ideas. Either way, he is not pushing a liberal agenda, and the American political spectrum continues to shift further and further right.

[Plu]

I wonder what kind of "legal" activity would be so secret that you'd have to torture the guy sending out the information and deny him basic trial and such. Usually when people reveal legal information they agreed not to reveal, they just go to a regular court and pay a fine, they don't get locked away and tortured.

It's almost like they have something to hide :)

[SGOS]

I wonder what kind of "legal" activity would be so secret that you'd have to torture the guy sending out the information and deny him basic trial and such. Usually when people reveal legal information they agreed not to reveal, they just go to a regular court and pay a fine, they don't get locked away and tortured.

It's almost like they have something to hide :)

It used to be that when a woman reported that some time in the past, a president pulled his pants down and asked her for sex, they would tarnish her reputation by circulating a story in the media that she was trailer trash.  

Later, as these politicos gained more power, if a man reported that the president was making the false claim that Iraq had been buying up yellow cake uranium to create WMD, they would publicly announce to the enemy that his wife was a CIA spy, ruin her career, and put her life at risk.

Now they use torture.  It sends out a warning to the little people about pissing off the big people.  And everyone should love their leaders, because we know they are very brave and they are doing these things for us to make us safer and to protect our freedom.  They spy on us, trump up excuses to throw us in jail, and throw away our constitutional rights.  But they have to, because the Arabs want to destroy our freedom.  So we must give up part of our constitutional rights, or the Arabs will destroy our freedom.  You see, our government loves us and wants us to have our freedoms.  So when the Arabs attacked us, we went out shopping, like the government told us to do, and it made the Taliban mad, but we still have our freedom thanks to our brave leaders.

[mykcob4]

Revealing secrets is a crime. Both Manning and Snowden revealed something that was perfectly LEGAL.

So Manning's revealing video of soldiers mowing down civilians (including a BBC journalist) that was then buried by higher ups to avoid responsibility was reveling something legal?

For example Snowden could have and should have reported it to his congressman instead of spilling secrets.

There were 4 (I believe NSA or FBI, I will try to find the article again) people who went through legal channels to reveal corruption. They now face a combined 35 years in prison. The system is not set up to protect the people who report crimes, it is set up to protect the people who to commit them... because the people committing them are the one's writing the laws.

That is why what Manning and Snowden have done is a necessity... because if they went through the legal channels they would be arrested.

.LBJ, did his best work by making deals and negotiating. One of the reasons the Kennedys picked LBJ as vice prez, is because of the dealing power he wielded in congress.

I like LBJ, I grew up in his neck of the woods. But LBJ's strategy was to force the other side to submit to HIS demands, not to submit to THEIR demands. That is why I have much respect for him... he didn't compromise his morals for political gain. Foreign policy wise I think he was terrible, but domestically he had a spine... something Obama has so far yet to show.

Hey basically I'm on your side. I am a true Liberal Progressive. I hate anything and everything conservative. I am a 22 year vet of the USMC and you'd be surprized just how many of us are true liberals, but we also have experience working within the system.

I just have a hard time seeing that when you find Obamacare a progressive policy.

That said, I do know much of the military is liberal; my (adopted) family is 4 generation military... I pretty much grew up at BAMC and Lackland AFB.

I am not asking you to jump on the Obama bandwagon, I am truly not. What I am saying is that Obama is nothing like the repukes and conservaturds. He isn't trying to dismantle workers rights. Hes not trying to refight the civil war. Among other things that the corrupt corporate owned conservaturds are trying to do.

I apologize for that, when I said Republicans I mean the moderates; not the Louis Gomerts (spelling?)... and my brain is blank atm of the nutjobs names. But his policies are not drastically different from the Republican's basic ideas. Either way, he is not pushing a liberal agenda, and the American political spectrum continues to shift further and further right.

Take Manning....The person that he reached out to reveal alledged crimes was ofcourse the wrong person. Manning had congressmen and if had contacted them, the military COULD NOT PROSECUTE HIM! (sorry for yelling)
I have heard of the "whistle blowers" but am not familure with their cases, at any rate there is ALWAYS a correct and legal channel to go to. Any whistle blower can consult a lawyer and therefore not be held accountible for blowing the whistle. There is always political opposition to whatever a gov agency does and you can go to those elected officials and blow the whistle and protect yourself from prosecution. In the civilian world it is much different but then again all that can happen to you is that you get fired.
As far as LBJ goes, if you really look into it, you'll find that he gave as much ground as he gained. He was the best negociator in American history. Sam Rayburn said on the floor of the House that LBJ could get a deal with the devil and not lose his soul in the process. Lbj negociated the equal rights bill that vitually ended Jim Crow. He had to give up alot to do it and he didn't get everything that Martin Luther King Jr wanted but he got it done. Lbj got Community College, Public Television and NPR, He ended prayer in school, got busing through, but he had to sell out to the large defense contractors to do it, like Bell, Textron, McDonald-Douglas, Boeing.....!
I don't see Manning nor Snowden as heros for democracy. I see Manning as immature and wanting to be famous reaching out to Wikileaks. I see Snowdin as a traitor for selling out to China. If they saw or knew of a crime then they had a better and more legal recourse of action, but they chose the wrong and criminal way to do it.