Author Topic: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...  (Read 2200 times)

Offline Baruch

What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« on: March 21, 2018, 06:56:37 PM »
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Not long ago, I read about the metal defects in the hull of the Titanic.  What this new video claims, is that there was a low grade coal fire in the coal storage area, and that the captain knew about it before he sailed.
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Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2018, 09:16:42 PM »
Perhaps, perhaps not, but one thing is certain and the certainty is the maker of the video just had to toss in lots of extra information having absolutely nothing to do with how the ship sank such as mention of the hair salon, how dogs were treated for first class passengers, oak paneling on the stairwells and on and on.. That kind of trivial nonsense is why I lose interest in many videos of this kind and tend to think of them as mere sensationalism..
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 09:18:34 PM by AllPurposeAtheist »
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

Offline SGOS

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2018, 06:30:06 AM »
Mostly, it retold what I already knew.  Greed, negligence, and disregard for safety sunk the Titanic.  But don't disregard the role of the iceberg.

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2018, 11:08:16 AM »
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2018, 11:09:06 AM »
Is there any way we could get the imgfit code?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2018, 08:37:20 PM »
Truth is that which comports with reality.

As we learn more about reality, truth changes.

QED.
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Offline Cavebear

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2018, 01:32:45 AM »
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Truth is that which comports with reality.

As we learn more about reality, truth changes.

QED.

Seems reasonable.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Online Hydra009

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2018, 01:51:24 AM »
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Truth is that which comports with reality.

As we learn more about reality, truth changes.

QED.
Exactly.  But the whole fuzzy nature of it all (plus, lots of unknowns - only some get revealed, and usually gradually) can be pretty hard on people who want definitive, unchanging answers right now.

People like easy, immediate answers and hate uncertainty almost as much as they hate change.  Remember when Pluto got reclassified?  I thought I'd never hear the end of it.

Offline Cavebear

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2018, 02:03:55 AM »
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Exactly.  But the whole fuzzy nature of it all (plus, lots of unknowns - only some get revealed, and usually gradually) can be pretty hard on people who want definitive, unchanging answers right now.

People like easy, immediate answers and hate uncertainty almost as much as they hate change.  Remember when Pluto got reclassified?  I thought I'd never hear the end of it.

I always considered Pluto not a true planet because its orbit was off the solar plane, it was too small, and the orbit was too elliptical.  I always thought it was just "captured".
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2018, 03:09:23 AM »
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Exactly.  But the whole fuzzy nature of it all (plus, lots of unknowns - only some get revealed, and usually gradually) can be pretty hard on people who want definitive, unchanging answers right now.

People like easy, immediate answers and hate uncertainty almost as much as they hate change.  Remember when Pluto got reclassified?  I thought I'd never hear the end of it.

If you want definitive unchanging answers;  join a cult!   It you want to live in the real world, answers can change.   
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2018, 05:59:07 AM »
I'm not interested in truth, just facts.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2018, 06:28:42 AM »
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I'm not interested in truth, just facts.

Truth = meaning, which is always the interpretation of facts ... and the focus of religion and politics.  I have heard two interpretations now, of the metal failure of the Titanic ... one was bad material used in construction, now it is said to be a coal bin fire.  But it is a fact, because of a sample taken of the metal from the wreck, that the steel couldn't tolerate a blow from an iceberg without cracking like an egg.  Lack of ductility.
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Offline SGOS

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2018, 09:02:43 AM »
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I'm not interested in truth, just facts.
Worthy point.  One of the first times I experienced pedantic confusion was when I was eight or so, when I heard someone either say or read from the Bible, "I am the Lord thy God.  I am the truth and the light."  How can an entity be the truth?  I had been taught to tell the truth.  I had a definition which I still use today: The truth is something you tell when you are not lying. It may or may not address facts, but it does not certify accuracy.  It is at best an affirmation that you believe what you are saying.

I resolved my confusion by concluding that "Truth" could be used incorrectly in  the Bible or in poetry, as long as one would catch the drift of the thought even while the language was being slaughtered.  Good thing too, since I have come to know that I live in a society where people do that all the time.

"Facts" are somewhat different than truth and assumed to be based on data or direct observation.  Data and observation can be wrong too, but are more trustworthy than belief.  I think an even better thing than "fact" would be "reality."  But now that I've asserted that, it strikes me that the meaning of "reality" can be slaughtered in common usage just as well.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 10:07:40 AM by SGOS »

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2018, 10:02:34 AM »
I worked 25 years on this site: ibiblio.org/hyperwar, to help people get their facts straight.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline SGOS

Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2018, 11:15:43 AM »
I read Chapter 20 from your link, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login and found it very interesting and quite detailed.  Even as a war baby born in 1943, I didn't fully realize the complexity of World War II.  While this does understate my knowledge of the war, my impression was:  Hitler goes berserk, defeats most of Europe, threatens England and Russia.  United States steps in, kicks ass, and ends the war in Europe.  Then defeats Japan.

Of course, I knew there was more involved, but Chapter 20 gives a clearer picture of our near miffs and misses.  History often gives the impression of an inevitable outcome based on an armchair gift of hindsight.  I picked up the sense of urgency in Chapter 20, how unprepared were, the planning, cooperation, and conflicting strategies between politicians and a more knowledgeable military leadership, but most of all, how complex the whole thing was.  A vast complicated set of Allied strategies to defend modern Western civilization and ideology, and the sense of tension not knowing for sure what the outcome would be.

One of my earliest vivid memories was when I was 2 years old in 1945.  I didn't know much.  I didn't know what war was, at least I can't remember knowing what war was.  I got out of bed and went to the kitchen as I usually did.  My mother was sitting at the breakfast table reading the paper, although I don't remember knowing what a newspaper was.  My dad came into the kitchen at the same time, and my mother held up the paper showing my father the headline, and said "The War is Over."  My father didn't take the paper.  But without a show of emotion or words, he nodded a knowing acknowledgement.  I may have picked up approval or a tinge of relief in both my parents.   I remember not knowing what all this meant, but I did somehow understand that this was a very important thing, like maybe the most important thing that there would ever be.  I guess that's why I still remember it, even though I didn't really know what it was at the time.


 

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