Author Topic: The corrosive effect of denial ...  (Read 1354 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2018, 08:48:20 PM »
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You can easily understand consciousness by explaining it through QM, especially if you don't understand QM.

But doesn't that only explain one's lack of understanding?
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Offline Baruch

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2018, 08:49:20 PM »
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Yeah, to paraphrase Bill O'Reilly, thought goes in, thought goes out - you can't explain that!

Bill O'Reilly is an example of a random thought generator these days.
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Offline SGOS

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2018, 10:07:57 PM »
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But doesn't that only explain one's lack of understanding?
Yeah, probably.

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2018, 06:58:05 PM »
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Schrodinger's cat has to be dead or alive.  You can't say it's both on the grounds that you don't know.  Even if you throw in some obscure chemicals that create a poisonous gas and you don't know if they combined or not.  That is an irrelevant detail to make the story more interesting.  But that cat is either dead or alive.  Your lack of knowing alters nothing about the reality inside the box.

If you're trying to promote the hidden variable theory, Bell's Theorem pretty much shows that something like that wont work.

It's not about not knowing.   The cat is both alive and dead because it is occupying both those states.  That's the reality. 

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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Offline SGOS

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2018, 07:40:08 PM »
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If you're trying to promote the hidden variable theory, Bell's Theorem pretty much shows that something like that wont work.

It's not about not knowing.   The cat is both alive and dead because it is occupying both those states.  That's the reality. 
I can give no response to that.  It makes no sense to me.

Offline Cavebear

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2018, 12:38:00 AM »
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Schrodinger's cat has to be dead or alive.  You can't say it's both on the grounds that you don't know.  Even if you throw in some obscure chemicals that create a poisonous gas and you don't know if they combined or not.  That is an irrelevant detail to make the story more interesting.  But that cat is either dead or alive.  Your lack of knowing alters nothing about the reality inside the box.

That's always been my view.  The ignorance of whether the cat is dead or alive does not describe the actuality of its existence or death.  And, BTW, Schrodinger should have used a mouse.  Some people care about cats.  Not many care about mice.  His choice of a "cat" influences the way people view his analogy.  I personally have to push my thoughts around that every time I read of his thought experiment.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline SGOS

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2018, 08:24:42 AM »
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That's always been my view.  The ignorance of whether the cat is dead or alive does not describe the actuality of its existence or death.  And, BTW, Schrodinger should have used a mouse.  Some people care about cats.  Not many care about mice.  His choice of a "cat" influences the way people view his analogy.  I personally have to push my thoughts around that every time I read of his thought experiment.
In addition to the abhorrent nature of the analogy, it makes no sense in a macro-environment for things as big as cats.  At the quantum level, such a thing may be possible, because we believe the quantum reality is not the reality explained by the physics we deal with in our perceived reality.  Or maybe that doesn't happen at the quantum level either.  Who knows?  We might be saying a quantum thing is two different things at the same time on the grounds that we can't actually see it, just like the cat.

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2018, 02:00:52 PM »
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That's always been my view.  The ignorance of whether the cat is dead or alive does not describe the actuality of its existence or death.  And, BTW, Schrodinger should have used a mouse.  Some people care about cats.  Not many care about mice.  His choice of a "cat" influences the way people view his analogy.  I personally have to push my thoughts around that every time I read of his thought experiment.
Maybe that's why Hawking hated it so much he wanted to grab his gun whenever anyone mentioned it.

Also, Shroedinger had no intention of the thing being taken seriously, he was trying to mock the then-new quantum theory.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 02:06:53 PM by Unbeliever »
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Offline Baruch

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2018, 02:27:55 PM »
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Maybe that's why Hawking hated it so much he wanted to grab his gun whenever anyone mentioned it.

Also, Shroedinger had no intention of the thing being taken seriously, he was trying to mock the then-new quantum theory.

He had helped invent quantum theory, but didn't like what he created, same as Einstein.  He and Einstein tried to collaborate, but broke up on personality differences.  After the rise of Hitler, Schroedinger fled to Dublin Ireland, as Einstein fled to Princeton NJ.  At that point, the synergy of European physics was dead.

And yes, some proponents take the quantum realism position (that QM is reality itself, not a mere pragmatic model of reality).  So even large things like super-tankers, have a wave function, and can at low probability quantum tunnel from one side of the Earth to the other (aka Bermuda Triangle).

The man speaks for himself ...

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« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 02:30:24 PM by Baruch »
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Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2018, 02:30:24 PM »
Quote
So even large things like super-tankers, have a wave function, and can at low probability quantum tunnel from one side of the Earth to the other (aka Bermuda Triangle).


Well, such a circumstance would certainly (or uncertainly) save on shipping costs!
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"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up."
Lily Tomlin

Offline Baruch

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2018, 02:31:02 PM »
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Well, such a circumstance would certainly (or uncertainly) save on shipping costs!

Alas, a small probability of ending in the Earth's core instead of near Australia!

Schrodinger of course stands opposite ... his contemporary advocate ... Alan Turing, who supposed that humans are automatons, and hence a sufficiently complex computer could think.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 02:44:46 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Cavebear

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2018, 02:59:13 AM »
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Yeah, to paraphrase Bill O'Reilly, thought goes in, thought goes out - you can't explain that!

And there is often no particular connection in him...  LOL!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline SGOS

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2018, 10:00:40 AM »
Quote
Schroedinger:  "Do electrons think?"
I tried to view the video out of perverted curiosity, because the question is preposterous.  But I couldn't understand Schroedinger well enough to last more than 90 seconds.  I did note that he answered the question with an unqualified "No" in 27 seconds, but I didn't think there was much of substance he could have added in the next 14 minutes of his broadcast, so I didn't go further.  I think I may have had too much coffee this morning.


Offline Baruch

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2018, 12:10:06 PM »
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I tried to view the video out of perverted curiosity, because the question is preposterous.  But I couldn't understand Schroedinger well enough to last more than 90 seconds.  I did note that he answered the question with an unqualified "No" in 27 seconds, but I didn't think there was much of substance he could have added in the next 14 minutes of his broadcast, so I didn't go further.  I think I may have had too much coffee this morning.

He is easier to understand (in English) than Einstein ...

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From pre-WW II.  He became less pacifist, toward Germans, later.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: The corrosive effect of denial ...
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2018, 11:40:35 PM »
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I tried to view the video out of perverted curiosity, because the question is preposterous.  But I couldn't understand Schroedinger well enough to last more than 90 seconds.  I did note that he answered the question with an unqualified "No" in 27 seconds, but I didn't think there was much of substance he could have added in the next 14 minutes of his broadcast, so I didn't go further.  I think I may have had too much coffee this morning.

Too much coffee in the morning, too much wine at night; sort of the same thing.  I have always personally thought the Shoedinger argument of little value.  Sure, you don't know whether the cat is dead or alive, but it IS one or the other.  I suspect it will someday be considered as silly as the old Greek idea you can't catch up to slower runners due to the fractional reductions. 

Math doesn't ALWAYS represent reality...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

 

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