Do you think Adolph Hitler is locked in hell forever?

[Unbeliever]

I believe the ancient Jews believed that, as well, until their capture by the Persians, where they absorbed much of the theology from the Zoroastrians, after which they had a belief in an afterlife, and heaven and hell.

How many Christians even know that?

[Baruch]

I believer the ancient Jews believed that, as well, until their capture by the Persians, where they absorbed much of the theology from the Zoroastrians, after which they had a belief in an afterlife, and heaven and hell.

How many Christians even know that?

Correct.  The Torah and much of the rest of the Tanakh didn't exist as such before the Persians sent the Zionists back to Jerusalem from Babylon, under several Jewish governors (see Ezra in particular) who worked for the Shah (emperor of Persia).  It was cobbled together then, and over the next 350 years, from prior materials that existed in part, before the Babylonian Exile.  When in Babylon, that is when Judeans were exposed to the Flood myth for example, which went back millennia before even the Babylonians.  With the coming of Persia, and Zoroastrianism, there was the notion of an afterlife (though it also existed in Egypt, but Jews were anti-Egyptian and pro-Persian).  In Western Indo-Persian culture aka Persian culture, time is linear, not circular like it is in Eastern Indo-Persian culture aka Hindu culture.  So an afterlife was a logical necessity, rather than reincarnation.  There were a small minority of Judeans, 2000 years ago (500 years after the release from Babylonian captivity) who believed in reincarnation however (called gilgul in Hebrew).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgul

The Zoroastrian idea seems independent, but convergent evolution to the even older Egyptian afterlife beliefs.  Paul and Muhammad would have both been influenced by Egypt and Persia in their own times.

[Baruch]

There is no soul of man that lives after death to have pleasure in a heaven or to have pain in a hell...

Materialists in both Greece (Atheists) and India (Charvaka) have claimed such for about 2500 years now.  Not a new idea.

[Baruch]

For thlose keeping score, that's in Ecclesiastes. Verse 9:5 reads, “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.”

No further reward? I guess no reward in heaven either, huh?

Pre-Zionist.  The original Zionists were the elite who came to Jerusalem from Babylon, under Persian control, to enact Persian religious-ethnic policy.  The majority of Babylonian and Iranian Jews stayed where they were.  The majority were never deported in 722 BCE (Israel) or 587 BCE (Judah) ... just the upper and middle classes.  And some of those escaped to Egypt.

Ecclesiastes and Job are Jewish versions of perennial wisdom literature of the Middle East, which went back to the early Bronze Age.

[Cavebear]

I believe the ancient Jews believed that, as well, until their capture by the Persians, where they absorbed much of the theology from the Zoroastrians, after which they had a belief in an afterlife, and heaven and hell.

How many Christians even know that?

Can't say.  But some of us atheists do, LOL!

[Unbeliever]

Can't say.  But some of us atheists do, LOL!

I would say that it's likely that none of the rank and file Christians know it, but probably most of the high mucky-mucks of the religion do know it, at least those that went to seminary. But they hide such things from their flocks of sheeple.

[Baruch]

I would say that it's likely that none of the rank and file Christians know it, but probably most of the high mucky-mucks of the religion do know it, at least those that went to seminary. But they hide such things from their flocks of sheeple.

Like Frankenstein monsters, preachers are afraid of villagers with torches and pitchforks.  I was married to one.  The periodic need for her to get recharged during a lightning storm was unnerving.

[Unbeliever]

Would you rather she'd have been solar powered, like the villain created by Lex Luthor in one of those silly Superman movies?

[Baruch]

Would you rather she'd have been solar powered, like the villain created by Lex Luthor in one of those silly Superman movies?

No vampires are solar powered!  Lunatics require lunar power.

[Cavebear]

I would say that it's likely that none of the rank and file Christians know it, but probably most of the high mucky-mucks of the religion do know it, at least those that went to seminary. But they hide such things from their flocks of sheeple.

The religious sheep must be sheared, not educated.  A shepherd does not want sheep who ask awkward questions...  Bad for the business and all that.

[fencerider]

A shepherd does not want sheep who ask awkward questions...

I did that once. lol. James 6:4 or somewhere around there says that god never called angels sons of god. So I asked an associate pastor who the sons of god were in the flood. He said I dont know. We are not meant to understand everything until we get to heaven.

didnt ask him any more questions ;-)

[Baruch]

I did that once. lol. James 6:4 or somewhere around there says that god never called angels sons of god. So I asked an associate pastor who the sons of god were in the flood. He said I dont know. We are not meant to understand everything until we get to heaven.

didnt ask him any more questions ;-)

Gospel of John 1:12, Acts 2:17, Romans 8:14;19, Gal 4:16, Philippians 2:15, 1John 3:1;2 ... this is where "sons of god" are mentioned in the NT.  Not in James, and nothing much about angels.

Yes, clergy often aren't much better than lay people.  What you were asking about, was about the "nephelim" an OT concept from Genesis.  These were semi-pagan concepts inherited from the Canaanites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim ... I would definitely go with the Sumerian mythology version.

The synonym, Annunaki ... was popular as recently as the apocalypse scare of Dec 2012.

[Cavebear]

Gospel of John 1:12, Acts 2:17, Romans 8:14;19, Gal 4:16, Philippians 2:15, 1John 3:1;2 ... this is where "sons of god" are mentioned in the NT.  Not in James, and nothing much about angels.

Yes, clergy often aren't much better than lay people. 

I'm surprised you admit that.  Why should they be leading the flocks then?  Personally, I suspect it because they can't hold down a real job and skimming the sheep of their coins is easier than selling used cars to suckers.

[Baruch]

I'm surprised you admit that.  Why should they be leading the flocks then?  Personally, I suspect it because they can't hold down a real job and skimming the sheep of their coins is easier than selling used cars to suckers.

I have personal experience.  On both sides of the clergy/laity spectrum.  Has anyone else here been a minister or married to a pastor?

But notice i said, they are no better than the laity.  I don't mean the laity are good people.  Virtue signalers in most cases, like our Leftists etc.

Are politicians uber-menschen?  If not, why are they "leading"?  In regards to used car sales ... are you opposed to capitalism, or did you buy a lemon?

[fencerider]

i am not good at references

Hebrews 1:5 for unto which of the angels said he at any time, thou art my son. Today I have begotten thee?

I think there was another one somewhere. Anyways...

Fleecing the laity sure worked for Pat Robertson. I think he always had such a big smile on his face cause he knew all those suckers were making him rich