Author Topic: The Gospel According to Carrier  (Read 2738 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2018, 08:03:41 PM »
OK ... no Paul, no Jesus, no Luke ... so this was cooked up by a drunk Emperor Vespasian at a orgy at the Temple of Venus?
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Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2018, 08:36:50 PM »
Well, we don't know yet who thought it up and developed it into what it later became - that's the thing we're all trying to figure out.
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Offline trdsf

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2018, 08:43:42 PM »
I remain unconvinced that a historical Jesus is even relevant, since the vast, *vast* majority of Christians are followers of Paul's writings far more than they are of the teachings attributed to a Jeshua bar-Joseph.

It's more probable, IMO, that the character of Jesus is an amalgamation of any number of messianic itinerant preachers roving the Mid-East about two thousand years ago.  For my money, it's more probable that any historical You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login...
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Offline Baruch

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2018, 05:54:39 AM »
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I remain unconvinced that a historical Jesus is even relevant, since the vast, *vast* majority of Christians are followers of Paul's writings far more than they are of the teachings attributed to a Jeshua bar-Joseph.

It's more probable, IMO, that the character of Jesus is an amalgamation of any number of messianic itinerant preachers roving the Mid-East about two thousand years ago.  For my money, it's more probable that any historical You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login...

When the time traveller tried to sell Pontius Pilate on BitCoin ... that is when they crucified him ;-)
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Offline Cavebear

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #64 on: March 29, 2018, 09:02:04 PM »
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I let some young guys in, and they were grateful about that, so when they didn't make any headway with me, they brought in the big guns.  The Church Minister showed up a couple of times, and then he handed the saving of my soul to an older woman about my age who showed up in a Cadillac and with a book marked Bible, with all the passages that proved the Bible was the word of God.  Finally, she gave up, and that was the last I heard from them.

However, I called the minister, who was also a building contractor, a few years later when I needed a cement pour for a garage floor.  He was busy, but he said he would send his sons, who worked for him.  Now the hand of God must have been at work, because a true honest to God miracle happened, actually two miracles in quick succession.  First, the cement guys, two scrappy lads in their twenties, actually showed up on the day they said they would.  This has never been known to happen, as far as I know.   Their personalized license plates, "ELK AHOLIC"  attested to their devotion to elk hunting, and when I asked them if they would give me a hand with a massive beam, they each grabbed an end, hoisted over their heads and put it in place so I could secure it later.  The second miracle was that they left with the best cement pour I ever had, smooth as silk, and it never cracked while I lived there.  I've never had a garage floor that never cracked before.

Well, I certainly wouldn't have specifically called a religious construction worker to do work on my house, but I wouldn't have refused one either.  My experience in that the 2 ideas aren't much connected.  In fact the duo I hired to replace my 30 year old bathtub and tile all around (based on quality reports) turned out to be not only very religious but utter racists as well.

They did quality work.  But I won't ever use them again.  I couldn't stand listening the country music they played all day.   Drove me CRAZY, but I never want to wake someone doing work in the house.  The music lasts a couple days, the tub lasts for 30 years.  You have to put up with stuff sometimes.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #65 on: March 29, 2018, 09:16:16 PM »
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I remain unconvinced that a historical Jesus is even relevant, since the vast, *vast* majority of Christians are followers of Paul's writings far more than they are of the teachings attributed to a Jeshua bar-Joseph.

It's more probable, IMO, that the character of Jesus is an amalgamation of any number of messianic itinerant preachers roving the Mid-East about two thousand years ago.  For my money, it's more probable that any historical You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login...

That certainly seems most likely to me.  There were wandering preachers of varying ideas among the Roman-occupied Jews in a time of great social stress.  That some various writers a century or 2 later (a length of time far longer in perception then that it is to us today, having a better sense of history) should combine the ideas of many preachers into one is not a great surprise.

And that some small group of believers who disagreed with each other at first about the details of the new ideas slowly settled on some basic agreement is not exactly a surprise either.  People compromise to get allies, after all.

And as in all ideologies, some leaders rise to the top and negotiate agreements.  There were a lot of various "christian" sects at one point.  One group won.  Until the Protestant Revolution...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2018, 02:21:51 PM »
A general cultural history observation ...

Biblical culture is geographically, Greater Syria (modern Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Palestine).  This was generated circa 1500-500 BCE by the larger forces of Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Egypt.  From 500 BCE to 500 CE ... this ME culture was modulated by incursions by India-Europeans ... first the Persians, then the Greeks, finally the Romans.  Judaism today is largely the product of the Greco-Roman period, as is Christianity.  Judaism adheres more closely to the ME model, Christianity is a mixed bag of ME and Indo-European cultures.  Islam on the other hand, was influenced by Zoroastrianism (Persia), Christianity (in the RE, Persia and Ethiopia), and Judaism.  It is like a ME echo of Judaism that originally only applied to Arabs, as Judaism was originally only applied to Jews.  Eventually both Christianity and Islam became multiethnic, on the way to becoming world-faiths.  And that basically takes us thru 500 CE until 1000 CE ... after which Asia (nomads) becomes more prominent in the ME and E Europe.
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Offline trdsf

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2018, 09:08:18 PM »
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That certainly seems most likely to me.  There were wandering preachers of varying ideas among the Roman-occupied Jews in a time of great social stress.  That some various writers a century or 2 later (a length of time far longer in perception then that it is to us today, having a better sense of history) should combine the ideas of many preachers into one is not a great surprise.
Oh, even today, it doesn't take all that long for an otherwise unremarkable event to be blown into epic proportions completely out of touch with the reality at the base.  How long did it take for some wreckage at Roswell to get inflated not only into a UFO crash, but on into 'dead alien bodies recovered' and even 'living aliens recovered that soon died' and 'well, where else did stealth fighter technology come from if not alien spaceships'.  And that took only around 30 years, well within the living memory of many, and in a technologically advanced society with mass media.

It's even easier to do that now than it was in 1947—I mean, look at the number of stories planted during the 2016 election that got taken seriously enough for news coverage, that some people still believe are true even though they've been demonstrated utterly false.
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2018, 06:10:46 AM »
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A general cultural history observation ...

Biblical culture is geographically, Greater Syria (modern Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Palestine).  This was generated circa 1500-500 BCE by the larger forces of Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Egypt.  From 500 BCE to 500 CE ... this ME culture was modulated by incursions by India-Europeans ... first the Persians, then the Greeks, finally the Romans.  Judaism today is largely the product of the Greco-Roman period, as is Christianity.  Judaism adheres more closely to the ME model, Christianity is a mixed bag of ME and Indo-European cultures.  Islam on the other hand, was influenced by Zoroastrianism (Persia), Christianity (in the RE, Persia and Ethiopia), and Judaism.  It is like a ME echo of Judaism that originally only applied to Arabs, as Judaism was originally only applied to Jews.  Eventually both Christianity and Islam became multiethnic, on the way to becoming world-faiths.  And that basically takes us thru 500 CE until 1000 CE ... after which Asia (nomads) becomes more prominent in the ME and E Europe.

I actually sort of agree with you about that.  Islam is mostly a sub-set of Judaism adapted to desert nomadic practices.  That they hate each other so much is mostly by the argument about whether a Messiah has come.   Christianity got out of the way for a while by moving to Europe (and the Moslems wiping out the non-Roman Christians in North Africa) until the Moslems attacked Christians in East and Southwest Europe until the Christians attacked back (recently militarized by the Vikings and Mongols).

If you are thinking I think the whole 3 groups are all messed up together, you are correct.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2018, 06:28:48 AM »
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I actually sort of agree with you about that.  Islam is mostly a sub-set of Judaism adapted to desert nomadic practices.  That they hate each other so much is mostly by the argument about whether a Messiah has come.   Christianity got out of the way for a while by moving to Europe (and the Moslems wiping out the non-Roman Christians in North Africa) until the Moslems attacked Christians in East and Southwest Europe until the Christians attacked back (recently militarized by the Vikings and Mongols).

If you are thinking I think the whole 3 groups are all messed up together, you are correct.

Culture is like that.  Culture includes language and "world of imagination".  Ancient Egyptian imagination includes the Sun god, Ra.  If you were in that culture, and of that culture, you would see Ra rise in the morning and set in the evening (see perception remark in Shoutbox).  Unless of course you were an Aten heretic like Akenaten.

Are perceptions wrong, or just different according to time and place.  The national boundaries (as an SJW would tell you) aren't lines n the ground, just on a map.  Their presence is agreed to perception, of course we don't all agree on them, hence illegal immigration.

We share a lot of culture across time and space, but only in one direction of time.  You and I share by being from the same culture, more or less.  There is a lot of Egypt and Babylon in Judaism and Christianity, and from them, into Islam.  This is well known, but deliberately ignored, by theologians.  In Christianity for example, you will find a lot of Amun, Ptah, Khnum, Horus and Osiris in it.  This is why Egypt is the first nation to take to Christianity (but not the Roman or Byzantine kind).  IMHO, Christianity comes as much for Egypt, as it does from Judea.  Worship like an Egyptian ;-)  As a literate person, as a scribe, you and eye are entitled to show our status by wearing green malachite eye shadow ;-))  All Egyptians who could wore kohl, aka mascara ... that is to act as bug poison to prevent fly eggs, and to protect the eyes from over-exposure to bright sunlight (they didn't have sunglasses yet).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 06:34:44 AM by Baruch »
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Offline Cavebear

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2018, 06:40:31 AM »
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Culture is like that.  Culture includes language and "world of imagination".  Ancient Egyptian imagination includes the Sun god, Ra.  If you were in that culture, and of that culture, you would see Ra rise in the morning and set in the evening (see perception remark in Shoutbox).  Unless of course you were an Aten heretic like Akenaten.

Are perceptions wrong, or just different according to time and place.  The national boundaries (as an SJW would tell you) aren't lines n the ground, just on a map.  Their presence is agreed to perception, of course we don't all agree on them, hence illegal immigration.

We share a lot of culture across time and space, but only in one direction of time.  You and I share by being from the same culture, more or less.  There is a lot of Egypt and Babylon in Judaism and Christianity, and from them, into Islam.  This is well known, but deliberately ignored, by theologians.  In Christianity for example, you will find a lot of Amun, Ptah, Khnum, Horus and Osiris in it.  This is why Egypt is the first nation to take to Christianity (but not the Roman or Byzantine kind).  IMHO, Christianity comes as much for Egypt, as it does from Judea.  Worship like an Egyptian ;-)  As a literate person, as a scribe, you and eye are entitled to show our status by wearing green malachite eye shadow ;-))  All Egyptians who could wore kohl, aka mascara ... that is to act as bug poison to prevent fly eggs, and to protect the eyes from over-exposure to bright sunlight (they didn't have sunglasses yet).

Most of which is ignored by rational people like atheists now as them.  The difference is that we atheists today don't usually get carved up or shunned as much.  And the day is coming when we are going to be the majority.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2018, 07:15:42 AM »
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Most of which is ignored by rational people like atheists now as them.  The difference is that we atheists today don't usually get carved up or shunned as much.  And the day is coming when we are going to be the majority.

Nihilists hate culture.  So atheism comes naturally to them.  But not all atheists are nihilists (human culture haters).  Some Jews can't stand the sound of German, because of what happened earlier.  Understandable but irrational.  Many atheists are former theists (but you are not).  They are still rejecting their prior experience with religion or with their upbringing.  Think of a Frenchman who hates the French language ... Sacre merde!
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Offline Cavebear

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #72 on: May 29, 2018, 07:55:17 AM »
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Nihilists hate culture.  So atheism comes naturally to them.  But not all atheists are nihilists (human culture haters).  Some Jews can't stand the sound of German, because of what happened earlier.  Understandable but irrational.  Many atheists are former theists (but you are not).  They are still rejecting their prior experience with religion or with their upbringing.  Think of a Frenchman who hates the French language ... Sacre merde!

Yeah, all kinds of atheists.  All kinds of theists too, and many for worse reasons...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #73 on: May 29, 2018, 01:30:17 PM »
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Yeah, all kinds of atheists.  All kinds of theists too, and many for worse reasons...

There is no respecting monkeys.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #74 on: May 29, 2018, 02:28:21 PM »
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There is no respecting monkeys.

Monkeys can be respected for what they are.  As can bats and rats and alley cats, sure as you're born.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

 

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