Author Topic: The Gospel According to Carrier  (Read 6943 times)

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2018, 11:30:17 PM »
I find it interesting that not a single contemporary historian mentioned Jesus. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2018, 01:03:59 AM »
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I find it interesting that not a single contemporary historian mentioned Jesus.

I mentioned that to a Jehovah's Witness once and he went nearly apoplectic.  Then he kept visiting me giving biblical quotes saying about Jesus.  And I kept pointing out that none of the biblical quotes presented any actual evidence.  He never actually understood the difference between faith and evidence.  But at least he stopped coming by.

And then, about a month ago, I saw them coming down the street and they visited every house but mine.  I actually watched them carefully, because it would have been useful to see if they skipped another house as that would have meant another atheist.  Sadly, no... 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #47 on: March 27, 2018, 05:52:49 AM »
Maybe brush your teeth more (halitosis joke).  To get more visitors than cats ...

"He never actually understood the difference between faith and evidence."  Bonus for you.  Door-to-door evangelists only know a script, their knowledge is shallow and their understanding less (Mormon evangelists are very young).  I do know the difference, but am religious anyway.  But I had to find a way to do that, and working that out was my road to self development.  If I had stayed as shallow as I was at half my present age ...

Evidence is tricky, with history.  Written evidence, even contemporary, is less than it seems ... whereas scripture thumpers are the exact opposite, because of written "evidence", and because it is popular, they are completely convinced.  But you and I know, the oldest existing semi-complete gospels are 150 years late, even if they meant anything other than fan fiction.  For me they are evidence of advocacy psychology, not of history.  Christians were subversives, particularly when they became a Gentile movement.  Real Christians are still subversive, but have been tamed by the modern status quo (except in Africa where they burn witches).
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #48 on: March 27, 2018, 12:16:44 PM »
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I mentioned that to a Jehovah's Witness once and he went nearly apoplectic.  Then he kept visiting me giving biblical quotes saying about Jesus.  And I kept pointing out that none of the biblical quotes presented any actual evidence.  He never actually understood the difference between faith and evidence.  But at least he stopped coming by.

And then, about a month ago, I saw them coming down the street and they visited every house but mine.  I actually watched them carefully, because it would have been useful to see if they skipped another house as that would have meant another atheist.  Sadly, no...
It seems you succeeded quite well! :)  We ended up putting a large sign that reads "No Soliciting" on our mail box by the front door.  It seems to keep them away.  Oddly enough it does not work quite as well for some of the door-to-door scammers who visit every now and again.  Had a PG&E worker come to my door yesterday (except PG&E do not go door-to-door)--had to resort to the the old 'get the fuck off my porch'--slams door and locks it, approach.  That finally worked.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2018, 12:43:05 PM »
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It seems you succeeded quite well! :)  We ended up putting a large sign that reads "No Soliciting" on our mail box by the front door.  It seems to keep them away.  Oddly enough it does not work quite as well for some of the door-to-door scammers who visit every now and again.  Had a PG&E worker come to my door yesterday (except PG&E do not go door-to-door)--had to resort to the the old 'get the fuck off my porch'--slams door and locks it, approach.  That finally worked.

With Smart Meters the utility company or the city, can tell what you are doing without visiting.  Facebook tells all about you.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline SGOS

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2018, 12:46:58 PM »
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I mentioned that to a Jehovah's Witness once and he went nearly apoplectic.  Then he kept visiting me giving biblical quotes saying about Jesus.  And I kept pointing out that none of the biblical quotes presented any actual evidence.  He never actually understood the difference between faith and evidence.  But at least he stopped coming by.

And then, about a month ago, I saw them coming down the street and they visited every house but mine.  I actually watched them carefully, because it would have been useful to see if they skipped another house as that would have meant another atheist.  Sadly, no... 

I let some young guys in, and they were grateful about that, so when they didn't make any headway with me, they brought in the big guns.  The Church Minister showed up a couple of times, and then he handed the saving of my soul to an older woman about my age who showed up in a Cadillac and with a book marked Bible, with all the passages that proved the Bible was the word of God.  Finally, she gave up, and that was the last I heard from them.

However, I called the minister, who was also a building contractor, a few years later when I needed a cement pour for a garage floor.  He was busy, but he said he would send his sons, who worked for him.  Now the hand of God must have been at work, because a true honest to God miracle happened, actually two miracles in quick succession.  First, the cement guys, two scrappy lads in their twenties, actually showed up on the day they said they would.  This has never been known to happen, as far as I know.   Their personalized license plates, "ELK AHOLIC"  attested to their devotion to elk hunting, and when I asked them if they would give me a hand with a massive beam, they each grabbed an end, hoisted over their heads and put it in place so I could secure it later.  The second miracle was that they left with the best cement pour I ever had, smooth as silk, and it never cracked while I lived there.  I've never had a garage floor that never cracked before.

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2018, 01:12:10 PM »
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I find it interesting that not a single contemporary historian mentioned Jesus. 
None of them mentioned Saul/Paul either, but Carrier, and I suppose others, consider him to have been a historical person. I'm still skeptical about that, too, along with my doubt about the historicity of JC.
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"Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is a child,"
Ecclesiastes 10:16

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2018, 01:18:25 PM »
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I've never had a garage floor that never cracked before.
Garage floors are not always what they're cracked up to be...;-)
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"Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is a child,"
Ecclesiastes 10:16

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2018, 01:30:50 PM »
Carrier?

We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2018, 01:47:43 PM »
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  Facebook tells all about you.
Not really. I have not visited that place in years and when I did it was for less than a week.  So, at best they have a week's worth--that's it.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline SGOS

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2018, 03:41:42 PM »
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Garage floors are not always what they're cracked up to be...;-)
Am I going to have to send you to your room, again?

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2018, 06:00:53 PM »
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Am I going to have to send you to your room, again?
Oh goody, then I can catch up on my technical manuals, like Scotty!
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"Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is a child,"
Ecclesiastes 10:16

Offline Baruch

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2018, 09:20:00 PM »
Paul wrote about a spiritual Jesus, not a historical one ... that is a big tell.  His own reported encounter was an epiphany, not shaking hands with flesh and blood.  Typical prophetic experience, like Muhammad encountering Gabriel.  That tells me, more than anything else that Paul was historical himself.  His biography (Acts) was a hagiography, so only sort of true.  Christians came over time to insist of historicity, because they were challenged by opponents to put up or shut up.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2018, 09:21:45 PM »
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Not really. I have not visited that place in years and when I did it was for less than a week.  So, at best they have a week's worth--that's it.

Your posts, lead to connections, which lead to connections.  That is what Cambridge Analytica is all about, correlation of meta-data.  Your context tells more about you, than you did directly.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: The Gospel According to Carrier
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2018, 01:23:55 PM »
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Paul wrote about a spiritual Jesus, not a historical one ... that is a big tell.  His own reported encounter was an epiphany, not shaking hands with flesh and blood.  Typical prophetic experience, like Muhammad encountering Gabriel.  That tells me, more than anything else that Paul was historical himself.  His biography (Acts) was a hagiography, so only sort of true.  Christians came over time to insist of historicity, because they were challenged by opponents to put up or shut up.

I don't think Acts of the Apostles was in any way historical nor was the gospel of Luke, written by the same person, and I agree here with Carrier:

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"Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is a child,"
Ecclesiastes 10:16

 

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