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The Liberal Mentality

Started by pr126, March 07, 2018, 01:12:27 AM

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Cavebear

Quote from: Shiranu on March 12, 2018, 04:09:55 PM
Statistics don't really back that up, though. It's more a case of the left moving further left and surrounding themselves with like minded individuals, and the right doing the same.

Statistics show that important left issues, like unions, gun control (at least before the last sting of mass shootings), economic regulation, etc. are all getting less support than they did 20, 30 years ago. That doesn't particularly indicate a shift to the left.

If you mean shifting to the left socially, I would agree; it is no longer (generally) acceptable to be a racist, sexist bigot like it was before, though we are seeing some backlash to that. But in terms of policy, America has shifted further right. That is simply not up for debate; even during Obama's presidency everyone was sick of him and the Senate giving the right what they want with nothing in return. And if you don't think the current house and presidency is even further right than it was under Obama, we really have nothing to discuss.

I think the situation is that the Left is staying pretty much where it has been for decades and the Conservatives keep moving toward the Right, following the alt-right, tea party, and evangelists. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on March 15, 2018, 01:51:10 AM
I think the situation is that the Left is staying pretty much where it has been for decades and the Conservatives keep moving toward the Right, following the alt-right, tea party, and evangelists.

You are stuck in the 1980s.  I wish I was still there, too.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Munch

Quote from: Cavebear on March 15, 2018, 01:51:10 AM
I think the situation is that the Left is staying pretty much where it has been for decades and the Conservatives keep moving toward the Right, following the alt-right, tea party, and evangelists.

Nah, think you got that mixed around. The right has had this level of ultra conservatives for a long time, this isn't a new thing. Its the left in the last 5-10 years that steadily gotten worse and at the same level of authoritarian. Extremist left is as much a thing now as extremist right.

the difference is the left complain and deny it more if you bring up the fact they have this side to their political establishment.
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

Baruch

Quote from: Munch on March 17, 2018, 11:45:24 AM
Nah, think you got that mixed around. The right has had this level of ultra conservatives for a long time, this isn't a new thing. Its the left in the last 5-10 years that steadily gotten worse and at the same level of authoritarian. Extremist left is as much a thing now as extremist right.

the difference is the left complain and deny it more if you bring up the fact they have this side to their political establishment.

Britain is different than the US.  Britain has always had a stronger Left, because you never broke free (or had the opportunity to) from your past, like the US did.  Britain follows a middle path between German authoritarianism and French anarchy.  Having Corbin as the head of the Laborites, would be like Bernie being the head of the DNC (instead of being a cat's paw to the neocon Ds).

The US has been very authoritarian for most of its modern history.  The real Left was put in check in 1918-1938, and then in check again 1948-1968.  War forced concessions.  With the end of the old Cold War, the Left here is increasingly irrelevant.  Bending a little left, was necessary, to prevent manipulation by facism and the Soviet Union.  Otherwise we might still have direct racial segregation.  Back then it was the Soviet Union, at least in propaganda, which was progressive with minorities and women.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

#49
How about the conservative mentality?



https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201612/fear-and-anxiety-drive-conservatives-political-attitudes


Quote"A 2008 study(link is external) published in the journal Science found that conservatives have a stronger physiological response to startling noises and graphic images. This adds to a growing body of research that indicates a hypersensitivity to threatâ€"a hallmark of anxiety. But why exactly would those that scare more easily tend to support conservative views? One social psychologist from the University of Central Arkansas, Paul Nail, has a pretty interesting answer:

“Conservatism, apparently, helps to protect people against some of the natural difficulties of living. The fact is we don’t live in a completely safe world. Things can and do go wrong. But if I can impose this order on it by my worldview, I can keep my anxiety to a manageable level.” This could explain the two parties’ different stances on gun control. It only makes sense that those who startle more easily are also the ones that believe they need to own a gun.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeBkX7zJKBM
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Shiranu

Quote from: Munch on March 17, 2018, 11:45:24 AM
Nah, think you got that mixed around. The right has had this level of ultra conservatives for a long time, this isn't a new thing. Its the left in the last 5-10 years that steadily gotten worse and at the same level of authoritarian. Extremist left is as much a thing now as extremist right.

the difference is the left complain and deny it more if you bring up the fact they have this side to their political establishment.

Again, I think this  comes down to what country you are in. In America, this is simply not true. In Europe it certainly may be, but here it is not... and the thing is, "liberals" as you talk to on forums are generally going to be American.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Unbeliever

#51
Doesn't the word "liberal" have a different meaning in Europe than in America?



[edit] I just found this:

Liberal? Are we talking about the same thing?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Gilgamesh

Quote from: Unbeliever on March 17, 2018, 03:16:57 PM
Doesn't the word "liberal" have a different meaning in Europe than in America?



[edit] I just found this:

Liberal? Are we talking about the same thing?

Liberal essentially just means that you're for liberty of the individual as large as it can get without it intruding on the liberty of others.

Liberalism is fundamentally pro-individualism. Therefore 'progressives' are not liberals, since they are collectivists.

Unbeliever

#53
Republicans exploit the conservative fear to manipulate the voters:



QuoteWith Trump reportedly “fuming” and ready to fire more staffers, the author who ghostwrote for Trump explains how Trump has always used fear with people around him and why “fear is what’s narrowing us” and “putting us in this contracted state.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ3xTEwmWe8
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Shiranu

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 17, 2018, 03:31:48 PM
Liberal essentially just means that you're for liberty of the individual as large as it can get without it intruding on the liberty of others.

Liberalism is fundamentally pro-individualism. Therefore 'progressives' are not liberals, since they are collectivists.

Well what do you know, it makes people calling me a dirty liberal even more wrong.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Cavebear

Quote from: Munch on March 17, 2018, 11:45:24 AM
Nah, think you got that mixed around. The right has had this level of ultra conservatives for a long time, this isn't a new thing. Its the left in the last 5-10 years that steadily gotten worse and at the same level of authoritarian. Extremist left is as much a thing now as extremist right.

the difference is the left complain and deny it more if you bring up the fact they have this side to their political establishment.

Well, we will have to disagree on that.  *I* consider that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are on the extreme left of the Democratic Party but that they aren't exactly communists, while half the Republican Party are so far Right the difference between them and Nazis is hard to distinguish.

And I basically comparing current positions of both parties as compared to 1980.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Hydra009

#56
Quote from: Cavebear on March 17, 2018, 10:59:10 PM*I* consider that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are on the extreme left of the Democratic Party
I dunno about Warren, but the American public largely supports Sanders' positions.  Apparently, a lot of Americans are extreme left.  Or American politics are skewed right.

I mean, Obama took the Heritage Foundation's idea and ran with it and he's the biggest commie pinko who ever lived and his legislation is an intolerable extreme far-left stain on this country - the worst thing to happen to this country since slavery.  Think about what that says about the realm of acceptable opinions - overton's window.

Republicans can float absolutely nutso people like Bachmann and Ted Cruz and Trump with little consequence, we all just kind of accept that's how conservatives operate now.  What otherwise would be seen as extreme is the new normal.  Hell, when you get a Republican that recognizes global warming as real and doesn't want a theocracy, these are "reasonable" people now.  When you look at things through that lens, Sanders and Warren sure look extreme.

Cavebear

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 17, 2018, 11:51:05 PM
I dunno about Warren, but the American public largely supports Sanders' positions.  Apparently, a lot of Americans are extreme left.  Or American politics are skewed right.

I mean, Obama took the Heritage Foundation's idea and ran with it and he's the biggest commie pinko who ever lived and his legislation is an intolerable extreme far-left stain on this country - the worst thing to happen to this country since slavery.  Think about what that says about the realm of acceptable opinions - overton's window.

Republicans can float absolutely nutso people like Bachmann and Ted Cruz and Trump with little consequence, we all just kind of accept that's how conservatives operate now.  What otherwise would be seen as extreme is the new normal.  Hell, when you get a Republican that recognizes global warming as real and doesn't want a theocracy, these are "reasonable" people now.  When you look at things through that lens, Sanders and Warren sure look extreme.

Wow, you are sort of all over the political map there, LOL!

Well, I am sort of Centrist but any Republican would consider me a commie and a lot of Democrats would consider me a Rightist.  I'm just too practical and analytical for either side really.

The line describing the political spectrum is getting longer at both ends and I'm trying to find a spot where the both sides can agree on ANYTHING!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on March 18, 2018, 01:05:09 AM
Wow, you are sort of all over the political map there, LOL!

Well, I am sort of Centrist but any Republican would consider me a commie and a lot of Democrats would consider me a Rightist.  I'm just too practical and analytical for either side really.

The line describing the political spectrum is getting longer at both ends and I'm trying to find a spot where the both sides can agree on ANYTHING!

Likes for you ;-)  If one is in the center, one has a clearer view of the nutso extremists.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

Quote from: Cavebear on March 18, 2018, 01:05:09 AM
Wow, you are sort of all over the political map there, LOL!

Well, I am sort of Centrist but any Republican would consider me a commie and a lot of Democrats would consider me a Rightist.  I'm just too practical and analytical for either side really.

The line describing the political spectrum is getting longer at both ends and I'm trying to find a spot where the both sides can agree on ANYTHING!
Ralph Nader has been working to build a left/right alliance for some time now. I don't know much about his progress, but at least he's trying. He wrote a book that I haven't read yet:

Unstoppable: The Emerging Leftâ€"Right Alliance to Dismantle the Corporate State
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman