The IQ Problem

[pr126]

Is this a tabu subject where everybody is deemed equal?
Political correctness forbids to talk about this.
Facts be damned.


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[Baruch]

Very tricky.  Hard to define.  IQ vs EQ.  And "Law of Averages".  For immigration (one of their shared concerns) you can't use the "Law of Averages" ... that the average IQ of a person from Africa is lower than the average IQ of a European.  Immigrants should be vetted.  Give each immigrant an IQ test, in their primary language, and only let in the high scores.  This has traditionally been ...

1. Make it almost impossible to become an immigrant (see France)
2. Don't allow in refugees aka uncritical admittance (see Japan)
3. Have a quota (see US)
4. Preferentially allow in the college educated (see US)
5. Allow doctors and engineers to immigrate in (see US)

Can't help if your country gives up sovereignty, or thinks that refugees have rights to your country.

N American immigration policy is somehow better than the European version.  We don't have little countries with their own languages (except Quebec).

Now what is IQ?  Partly language, partly culture ... and partly basic intelligence.

What is EQ?  Partly sociability, partly mental stability ... and partly personality.

Here is the entrance exam for Cornell University 1891 (in upstate NY).  Few here could pass it as an IQ test ...

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Almost nobody here could pass an EQ test.  Better not immigrate, better stay in quarantine in Outer Slobovia.

While I am pro-immigrant ... I am not pro UN aka that since all people are in the UN, that anyone should be able to immigrate anywhere they like ... same as someone in Texas can immigrate to California.

[pr126]

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[Mermaid]

This is another steaming pile of shit.
Question how "intelligence" is measured. Is it a fair test across cultures? What exactly does it measure? How do you know? Who designs these tests that measure intelligence?

[GSOgymrat]

This is another steaming pile of shit.
Question how "intelligence" is measured. Is it a fair test across cultures? What exactly does it measure? How do you know? Who designs these tests that measure intelligence?

I appreciate your scepticism. I don't have time to answer all those questions in sufficient detail but bottom line is intelligence is measurable, there is a lot of solid research to support this, but it is very difficult to design an intelligence test that is culturally unbiased. An IQ test can identify those individuals who would be considered intelligent by Western standards, but you're not going to be able to answer the question of whether you're picking out people who are most intelligent according to the standards of their culture. I encourage you not to simply take my word for it and research IQ if you are interested.

If IQ testing didn't accurately measure cognitive ability there would be no ethical problem, but it does and therefore it is an ethical minefield. The problem Peterson addresses is how psychologists and educators assumed if students with low or high intelligence were identified education could be tailored to suit their needs. However research is showing educational interventions aren't effective at improving IQ. There is an argument to be made that if educational programs don't improve IQ there is little reason to test children, that the benefits no longer outweigh the risks. One of the risks of IQ testing is certain people use IQ to justify existing prejudices or political ideologies.

[Mermaid]

I appreciate your scepticism. I don't have time to answer all those questions in sufficient detail but bottom line is intelligence is measurable, there is a lot of solid research to support this, but it is very difficult to design an intelligence test that is culturally unbiased. An IQ test can identify those individuals who would be considered intelligent by Western standards, but you're not going to be able to answer the question of whether you're picking out people who are most intelligent according to the standards of their culture. I encourage you not to simply take my word for it and research IQ if you are interested.

If IQ testing didn't accurately measure cognitive ability there would be no ethical problem, but it does and therefore it is an ethical minefield. The problem Peterson addresses is how psychologists and educators assumed if students with low or high intelligence were identified education could be tailored to suit their needs. However research is showing educational interventions aren't effective at improving IQ. There is an argument to be made that if educational programs don't improve IQ there is little reason to test children, that the risks no longer outweigh the benefits. One of the risks of IQ testing is certain people use IQ to justify existing prejudices or political ideologies.

Thank you for articulating what I am generally too lazy to think out. :)

[Baruch]

Very low level, language and cultural independent testing is possible.  But I also doubt that it is actionable.  Other factors in educational outcome wash it out (except for the profoundly retarded)

[Cavebear]

Is this a tabu subject where everybody is deemed equal?
Political correctness forbids to talk about this.
Facts be damned.


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PR, your new avatar isn't fair.  I can't dislike a cat!

[Baruch]

That cat looks rather feral.  Appropriate for him, yes?

[pr126]

That cat looks rather feral.  Appropriate for him, yes?

Not feral. A street cat, a fighter. Other cats don't want to mess with him.

[Baruch]

Not feral. A street cat, a fighter. Other cats don't want to mess with him.

My mother's tom cat, when I was little ... the dogs crossed to the other side of the street to avoid him ;-)

[Unbeliever]

Not feral. A street cat, a fighter. Other cats don't want to mess with him.

Kind of reminds me of that cat in Get Fuzzy.

[Mermaid]

Not feral. A street cat, a fighter. Other cats don't want to mess with him.

Big handsome thing.

[Hakurei Reimu]

Immigration, if it is restricted at all rather than being disallowed entirely, should preferably be restricted by objective tests or a preponderance of evidence that the specific individual is unfit to be allowed in. IQ, unfortunately, is more voodoo than science. It's measuring something, but it's never been validated that it's actually measuring intelligence, rather than something else, or a mixture of a bunch of factors (including in part intelligence).

Besides, proper IQ tests (not the shit you find in the back of OMNI magazine) are expensive to administer, on the order of hundreds of dollars per person, not to mention the time involved — over millions of immigrants per year (that pass the immigration tests; implying that more apply than this and fail), that quickly adds up. I don't think any nation has that kind of cash to spare, at least on immigration.

[Cavebear]

That cat looks rather feral.  Appropriate for him, yes?

No, actually I don't see his avatar cat as feral.  Sort of mildly Catnipped.