Author Topic: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?  (Read 9336 times)

Offline Cavebear

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2018, 08:12:21 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I am rather fond of the Bhagavad Gita myself.  It has a longer pedigree.

They are all fiction, BAD mythology, and wretchedly inaccurate history.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2018, 01:49:17 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
They are all fiction, BAD mythology, and wretchedly inaccurate history.

Philistines hate all art (I don't mean ancient Palestinians either).  Write your own novel ... I promise not to read it.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2018, 02:31:51 PM »
Hi Everyone,
Sorry for the delayed response…as you can see there was a lot to respond to.  Thank you for the responses.  I appreciate the conversation.

@Hydra009 – I have considered the serious claims of other religions, although it seems that maybe only Islam could be considered comparably serious.  I dismiss the teachings of Islam because the god described there can’t be good.  Such a god acts contrary to the truth and rewards evil.  Therefore, he can’t be trusted, so it doesn’t really matter if it’s true or not. 
No, I wasn’t saying that the more dire the claim the more plausible.  In a risk analysis, however, you consider the impact and the likelihood.  If the impact is sufficiently low then you can dismiss the risk without consideration of the likelihood.  However, if the impact is very high then the risk can’t be dismissed unless you’re sure that the likelihood is sufficiently low.

@aitm – I agree with you that most ‘Christians’ don’t pay much attention to their Bibles, unfortunately.  I asked you to cite the passage because there is no such passage in the Bible regarding commanding little girls to be raped.  There is a passage, however, that says a man should be put to death if he rapes someone: “But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die” (Deut 22:25).  As for God being patient with the people it is shown in Genesis 15:16: "Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete."  God did not allow His people to destroy them for many years.  Regarding child sacrifice to Molech by the Canaanites it is not only documented in the Bible but also external sources.  But you asked about the Bible, so Leviticus 18:21 says: “You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.”  And is followed in Leviticus 18:24 by: “Do not make yourselves unclean by any of these things, for by all these the nations I am driving out before you have become unclean…” 

@Blackleaf – Even if I was raised as a Christian, I don’t see how this is a valid argument.  Surely, you know people (or at least are aware of people) who believe differently than they were raised.  I would guess that a lot of people in this forum were raised Christian, so then why aren’t they Christians?  Why are there many people who were raised Muslims, but are now Christians? 
The God of the Bible most certainly rewards good and punishes evil.  The God of the Bible doesn’t ignore any evil.  As it says about God, He: “…will by no means clear the guilty…” (Exodus 34:7, ESV).  Every evil act will be punished by God.  However, because He is kind, merciful, and loving, He transfers the guilt of His people to His Son, the only One who can pay the price for it, so that His people are seen as blameless in His sight.  God is so kind, in fact, that He commands everyone to repent and receive this forgiveness and have immeasurable joy forever. 
You say you don’t believe anything without evidence, but that is simply false.  What evidence do you have that your memory is trustworthy?  None, and yet you trust it.  You may claim you trust it because it works, but how do you know it works?  You’re relying on your memory to trust that it works.  Given that you were wrong about this perhaps you’re wrong about not only God’s existence, but His goodness as well. 
Your claims that the Bible is inconsistent with science is only a statement that the Bible is currently inconsistent with something that is inconsistent.  The Bible was inconsistent with science when it said that spontaneous generation occurred.  If the people believed the Bible (like Louis Pasteur did) then they would’ve known they were missing some important information and that maggots only come from flies, not meat.   
Your superhero analogy fails because we aren’t innocent victims.  Unfortunately, I think many churches have done a really poor job (i.e., unbiblical) of presenting the true condition of people along with what God is like.  They have done this because they’ve wanted to tell people what they want to hear and this has reinforced the problem, which is that you believe you’re a good person…as the Bible says, “All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes…” (Proverbs 16:2, ESV).  Your analogy fails for this reason.  An accurate analogy would be to say that a bunch of criminals broke into a house and were trashing the place while stealing everything valuable and when the cops entered to arrest them you ask this superhero of yours why he isn’t doing anything to save the criminals.

@Mr. Obvious – Could you give an example of a contradiction in the Bible as well as an example of it condoning immorality? 

@Unbeliever
– Sure, I can show you where it claims to be the Word of God.  It states: “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,” (2 Timothy 3:16, ESV). 

@Mike Cl – The God of the Bible didn’t create a world in which people and animals needed to kill other people and animals to survive.  This was a result of man’s rebellion against his perfect Creator.  You also mentioned something interesting that all life depends on other life to survive.  How does that fit with Darwinian evolution?  It would make sense from a creationist perspective, however, where all life was created at around the same time.  As for evidence, the fact that anything exists is evidence that God exists.  You will have to agree that if anything exists it means that something has always exists, unless you wish to be illogical.  What is it that you propose has always existed that has led to our existence today?  Additionally, looking at life and concluding that there’s no evidence of a Creator is like looking at the most advanced computer software and information storage system in the world and saying that there’s no evidence that someone designed it.  Do you think it’s possible that the reason why you don’t see the evidence is because you’ve believed the lie that God isn’t good and therefore you blind yourself to the truth that is all around you?

@trdsf – I know it’s popular to claim that the Bible isn’t consistent with the archaeological record, but those claims have been found to be false over and over again (e.g., the Hittite people, the Roman census, etc).  I would be interested to hear about an archaeological finding that truly contradicts the biblical record.  Lack of findings isn’t a reason to dismiss something.  I’m sure you’d argue this as well if I said that bats were specially created because there isn’t any evidence in the fossil record of them evolving (which there isn’t, BTW).
As for the Bible calling bats birds, it doesn’t actually do so.  Translations of the Bible do this, but the Hebrew word being translated is owph, which means “fowl/winged creature,” so it includes birds, bats, and yes, even locusts, as you mentioned. 
As for the Bible claiming that pi is exactly 3 it does no such thing.  The claim you’re referring to is in reference to 2 Chronicles 4:2, which says in the ESV: “Then he made the sea of cast metal. It was round, ten cubits from brim to brim, and five cubits high, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumference.”  You may not be familiar with the concept of significant figures, but they indicate the measurement resolution (i.e., accuracy).  In this passage we’re dealing with 1 significant digit and therefore the circumference of 30 is perfectly consistent with the diameter of 10.  It would actually be wrong to say 31.4, since that would imply a more accurate measurement of the diameter was taken. 
The Bible says there’s nothing wrong with slavery?  The Bible actually commands that people should be put to death for enslaving people against their will: “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.” (Exodus 21:16).
You were wrong about all 3 of those.  But I suspect you never really thought about them too much and just happily accepted them as true because it fit your desires.  But as I’ve been asking, if you were worng about those things is it possible that you’re also wrong about God’s existence and kindness? 
       
@Jason78 – which basic “facts” did the Author of the Bible get wrong?

@sdelsolray – I’m curious how you think it has been demonstrated that the Genesis flood never occurred.  The fact that we have sedimentary rock with fossils all over the world is exactly what we would expect if there was a world-wide flood.   

@Cavebear – I can certainly understand not liking the idea of “Do this or be punished…” but if you think about it, if God is good there simply must be consequences for doing evil.  If God is evil or immoral then it would be consistent to think that He would reward or ignore evil.  But the better God is the more He must hate evil.  I don’t believe that God punishes people for simply not understanding Him perfectly.  God punishes people for doing wicked things.  Are you claiming that you’ve never done anything wrong that you knew was wrong? 

@Hydra009 – God does, in a sense, say to love Him or He will break your legs.  But if God is infinitely lovely then it is infinitely right to love Him and infinitely wrong to hate Him.  So what God is saying is that if you do evil you will be punished.  Do you desire evil to be rewarded?

@trdsf – As I’ve mentioned, the reason I reject other religions is that the god(s) they present are not good and can’t be trusted.  They lie, act contrary to the truth, and reward evil.  If any of those gods exist then there’s no hope in trusting in them anyway.

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2018, 02:49:12 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
@Unbeliever[/b] – Sure, I can show you where it claims to be the Word of God.  It states: “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,” (2 Timothy 3:16, ESV).

OK, so you figure that the word "scripture" is synonymous with "the Bible"? So if a writing is not in the Bible it could not be considered to be scripture?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"Ideas have consequences, and totally erroneous ideas are likely to have destructive consequences."
Steve Allen

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2018, 02:52:36 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
  I dismiss the teachings of Islam because the god described there can’t be good.  Such a god acts contrary to the truth and rewards evil.  Therefore, he can’t be trusted, so it doesn’t really matter if it’s true or not.

The God portrayed in the Bible also cannot be good, which is one of the reasons I dismiss it as being worthy of praise or worship, even if it did exist, which gladly it does not.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"Ideas have consequences, and totally erroneous ideas are likely to have destructive consequences."
Steve Allen

Offline aitm

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2018, 03:07:06 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


@aitm –I asked you to cite the passage because there is no such passage in the Bible regarding commanding little girls to be raped.   


When the babble says to go into the village and slay every man and woman but the young girls who have not known a man you may keep to yourself means pretty much what it is sir. You think maybe,  that means they are invited to come over for supper and play a board game?
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2018, 03:29:18 PM »
That's in the 31st chapter of Numbers, in case anyone's keeping score.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"Ideas have consequences, and totally erroneous ideas are likely to have destructive consequences."
Steve Allen

Offline PopeyesPappy

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2018, 03:53:38 PM »
Save a life. Adopt a Greyhound.


Offline Cavebear

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2018, 04:48:12 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hi Everyone,
Sorry for the delayed response…as you can see there was a lot to respond to.  Thank you for the responses.  I appreciate the conversation.

@Cavebear – I can certainly understand not liking the idea of “Do this or be punished…” but if you think about it, if God is good there simply must be consequences for doing evil.  If God is evil or immoral then it would be consistent to think that He would reward or ignore evil.  But the better God is the more He must hate evil.  I don’t believe that God punishes people for simply not understanding Him perfectly.  God punishes people for doing wicked things.  Are you claiming that you’ve never done anything wrong that you knew was wrong? 

Wow, you sure got great responses from the creme d' creme of the atheists here, LOL!  But I'll just answer my own part...

Let's start with your assumption that there is a god.  Oops, you can't give evidence for that, can you?  Well let's try a 2nd approach.  That good and evil can be defined in terms of religious adherence.  Hmm, a majority of the world disagrees with the SPECIFICS of what good and evil is religiously.

Another way to look at its that the consequences of evil should be punished.  I agree.  But I don't depend on a deity to tell me what is evil.  And if we got really deep into the weeds, you probably wouldn't either.  But humanity decides what is good and evil (and I may disagree with some on my fellow humans about that myself).

I was once forced to attend an ethics class.  I told the instructor that my ethics were better than his were.  When he objected, I pointed at the contractor-provided plate of donuts at the back of the room and mentioned that I hadn't taken one.   That really bothered him ALL DAY and well it should have.  I can be a real bastard about stuff like that!

"The better God is"?  I am howling with laughter...  You admit god improves (meaning he WAS imperfect - and think about that) or that he never was and isn't omni all-that-stuff...

"Are you claiming that you’ve never done anything wrong that you knew was wrong?"  You mean like not believing in a deity?  But I know what you mean.  Or do I?  What do YOU mean by "doing something wrong".?

How do you KNOW I'm not God testing you NOW to confess the wrongs you have done in your life?  Are you SURE you shouldn't confess to them right here? I DEMAND YOU CONFESS ALL YOUR SINS TO ME HERE AND NOW.  And most of them won't really be sins from MY POV.  I'm THE FORGIVING TYPE,  AFTER ALL.  And I'll forgive you the minor transgressions without a nanosecond's thought... 

Besides. II ALREADY KNEW YOU WOULD DO ALL THAT STUFF.  Its OK, I forgive you.

And you KNOW it is ME because I can tell the difference between "its" and "it's" .  In ALL languages...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2018, 06:08:11 PM »
I'm away from home, so I don't have time to type a full response yet, but I'll comment on two points.

First, you know a theist knows they don't have a leg to stand on when they change their definition of evidence. First you want us to accept your weak "evidence," such as when you use the Bible as proof of itself, then when it suits you, you go to the opposite extreme. Rather than accepting weak evidence, you question the very reliability of our senses themselves. You can't have it both ways. You can't lower the bar for yourself and then raise it to an impossible level for your opposition. Either admit that you have no evidence or hold yourself to common sense standards as the rest of us.

Second, if you really believe that the Biblical creation myth is literally true (which even most other Christians have the common sense to consider nonliteral), you just have no basis in reality. Evidence against that is overwhelming.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2018, 06:13:54 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Rather than accepting weak evidence, you question the very reliability of our senses themselves.
After all, we can't even read the Bible except with our unreliable senses.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"Ideas have consequences, and totally erroneous ideas are likely to have destructive consequences."
Steve Allen

Offline Baruch

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2018, 07:29:14 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Simpletons, have simple theology.  Smarter people, have smarter theology.  Circular logic, if not contradictory, is iron clad.  But then nobody here is a real Vulcan anyway.

Of course doing anything a book or writing tells you to do ... is being a simpleton.  That is why we can pretty much ignore the MSM or the Constitution as well.  Writing is only fit for the bottom of the bird cage.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 07:32:47 PM by Baruch »
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline PopeyesPappy

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2018, 07:38:10 PM »
^ I'm pretty sure this is an example of Dunning–Kruger. I'm just not sure if it is the internal illusion or the external misperception part.
Save a life. Adopt a Greyhound.


Offline Baruch

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2018, 08:03:09 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
^ I'm pretty sure this is an example of Dunning–Kruger. I'm just not sure if it is the internal illusion or the external misperception part.

Geeks and other autism sufferers are all Brites.  Their self assessment of how genius they are ... is simply simpleton.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: How do you know the Bible isn't God's Word?
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2018, 09:25:48 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

@Mike Cl
1-- The God of the Bible didn’t create a world in which people and animals needed to kill other people and animals to survive.  This was a result of man’s rebellion against his perfect Creator.
2--  You also mentioned something interesting that all life depends on other life to survive.  How does that fit with Darwinian evolution?  It would make sense from a creationist perspective, however, where all life was created at around the same time.
3-- As for evidence, the fact that anything exists is evidence that God exists.  You will have to agree that if anything exists it means that something has always exists, unless you wish to be illogical.  What is it that you propose has always existed that has led to our existence today?
4--  Additionally, looking at life and concluding that there’s no evidence of a Creator is like looking at the most advanced computer software and information storage system in the world and saying that there’s no evidence that someone designed it.  Do you think it’s possible that the reason why you don’t see the evidence is because you’ve believed the lie that God isn’t good and therefore you blind yourself to the truth that is all around you?
1--Have you read the bible??  If you have then you, like all other christians, love to cherry pick.  Gen 1 tells us that god created man and women at the same time and that 'we' pronounced them good.  Gen2 tells us that god created man (Adam or man) and man was lonely so he used (??) Adam's rib (very creative for the creator of the universe--did he run out of material to use???) to make a woman.  If your fictional god is supposed to be all powerful, all knowing, all seeing (yada, yada, yada........) then when he created Eden he and all that populated it, he knowingly created the serpent and the evil it would introduce because of the flawed nature of the humans he created.  The serpent is not to blame, god is, for the serpent did not create evil, god did and the serpent was only doing what it had to do.  And Eve was the one who created the flaws within herself, god is--and she was only doing what she had to do because that is how she was created.  When the tree of knowledge was breached, as god knew it would be, he simply continued with his plan and installed nature as we see it now.  God did all of that on his own (well, maybe he delegated some of that to the mysterious 'we' of Gen. 1--who knows, god is so 'mysterious').

2--Evolution is simply a fact and has been and is being, demonstrated by the minute of every day, year, decade, etc.  I'm not going to do all the work for you, but simply Google 'evolution proof' and expose yourself to some actual facts.  And no matter how much and sincerely you wish to think all live was created at the same instance, look at a few scientific facts and try to make room for actual data in your brain and not wishful thinking.

3--That anything exists is proof of the existence of god????  Really?  Which god?  Thor?  Jupiter, Saturn, Isis, The Great Raven....................which one?  How do you know?  Any proof?  It is quite easy to see that a god is not needed for 'stuff' to exist.  We don't 'know' all of the steps or in total detail how the universe started or how life began, but we know much, much more about it than was known 2000/3000 years ago and will know more in the future.  To understand a little of what that process is one has to get past the 'god did it' stage and use a little critical thinking.

4--Poor, poor analogy.  We can trace the progress of the computer from before there were computers to now.  We know how they were created and by whom.  We know what makes them tick, inside and out.  On the other hand, who or what created god?  Super god??  And there simply is not a scrap of empirical data to support any god.  The reason I don't see any evidence for god is not that I'm blind (you accuse me of being blind????? :))))))))), but that none exists.  I have searched and researched for most of my life and have wanted to find your god, or any god, but none presented itself--and for good reason--there is no god(s).  Have you bothered to really look at your god created nature???  Simply go into your own back yard and watch spiders eat its prey alive.  Your back yard is full of creatures eating other  creatures because they have no choice.  It is either kill and eat or die for that is where biological energy comes from--killing and death.  (Actually that does reflect your bibical god)  You have to gather energy for your body to operate--without it you die.  In order to live you must kill (or rely on others to do it for you)--no choice in that.  All who live in the photosynthetic system must kill, except for the plants--they can gather energy directly from the sun.  Could your god have fashioned a system that allowed all creatures to gather energy directly from the sun--sure, but apparently your god was not interested in that, for he seems to really love killing.  Or, at least, he loved seeming humans within that system.  But not all life on earth is tied to the energy of the sun.  There is another system that operates at the bottom of the oceans of the world where sunlight have never penetrated.  Life exists near and on volcanic vents that spew forth heat and chemicals.  Life is there and does not need sunlight and does not have to kill to survive.  So, your god did create another system of gathering energy to live--he just chose to make it so that humans must live in the environment that enforces killing and death.  Some god you love. 

All that you 'believe' is a fiction created by men to control men like you.  And they have succeeded beyond all of their expectations; much to the determent of human kind!  Read your bible--and don't cherry pick, but read all of it.

 
 
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 10:35:40 AM by Mike Cl »
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk