Toxic Masculinity

[Baruch]

Evidently not, because I read a lot of posts by people who seemed to be arguing about what toxic masculinity is and if it even exists. Judging by the "likes" on my post, it would seem that we are all on the same page now. Thus, a productive conversation about possible solutions can now ensue.

And as solutions go, a good place to start is education. The more people are aware of and understand a problem, the more time they will spend trying to think of ways to overcome the problem and/or raise the next generation(s) to value masculine virtues without going into toxic territory. Not the quickest or sexiest solution, not to mention vague as fuck, but it's a good starting point. Forum threads like this one where we discuss the nature of toxic masculinity are one such method of educating people and getting them to think. After all, it's gotten you to do some thinking, as evidenced by your posts. :D

Example ... I get the impression that Bill Clinton had a toxic male ... his stepfather ... in his upbringing.  That may or may not have influenced him.  My father was an alcoholic too, fortunately it didn't get too physical.  Like I said earlier, I took the positive aspects of my father as a guide.

[Baruch]

I'd wish for it too, and education is a solution, but fact is, as I said before, environment, upbringing, social standards country to country, everything is so varied it could never be a guarantee, the many aspects of culture and society the world over is just to complex. Making it available is a good thing, but in my mind, there are so many people in the world today, just like with homelessness, starvation, joblessess, there isn't enough room to teach everyone the right virtues and values.

That is why you need a Catholic dictatorship by guys in funny clerical garb who aren't allowed to have sex, can't marry and who wear beanies stolen from Jewish sartorial kosher ;-)

[Munch]

Example ... I get the impression that Bill Clinton had a toxic male ... his stepfather ... in his upbringing.  That may or may not have influenced him.  My father was an alcoholic too, fortunately it didn't get too physical.  Like I said earlier, I took the positive aspects of my father as a guide.

I really didn't take any positives from my dad, I could maybe name 2-3 happy memories of him as a child, but that was due to child naivety, so he was never a role model.

I think when your young, you look for role models, those older then you to look up to and aspire to, and we end up finding it in any place, in real life, family, friends, people we know briefly, people we don't even know ourselves like celebrities, and even fictional and made up characters.

It can also be down to the individual themselves. Anyone who read the story of Dave Pelzer, from his book 'A child called It', that even if someone is raised in an abusive, toxic and even nightmarish environment, that they can still become developed and adjusted people.
You then have examples of people (I'm trying to find the story but not come across it) who are raised in loving families who give them anything they want, only for the child to turn out viscous, narcissistic, and even a killer, not even raised in a toxic environment, they were just born messed up.

[Munch]

That is why you need a Catholic dictatorship by guys in funny clerical garb who aren't allowed to have sex, can't marry and who wear beanies stolen from Jewish sartorial kosher ;-)

I was under the impression Catholics work round that one by having alter boys used, no rules there saying they can't use them.

[Mike Cl]

Religion just reflects biology.

Bullshit!  And a total crock of crap!

[Unbeliever]

Bullshit!  And a total crock of crap!

I think he just likes to try pushing our buttons. He get's off on it.

[Draconic Aiur]

Thee way he is

[Cavebear]

Religion just reflects biology.  If your wife is your husband ... good for you, but most won't like that.

"St Paul's advice in 1 Timothy 2:12, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."

Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:

Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them: “So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying,"

"“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5) "

I could keep going...

[Gilgamesh]

"St Paul's advice in 1 Timothy 2:12, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."

Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:

Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them: “So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying,"

"“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5) "

I could keep going...

What conclusion are we supposed to draw from this post?

[Unbeliever]

Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them: “So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying,"

You left out the part where the guy cut her up into 12 pieces and sent the parts to the different tribes of Israel-and it hadn't been said that she had died first!

And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.
And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.

[PickelledEggs]

TBH, I was actually unaware that such a "thing" was being defined as "toxic" whatever. Ass-holes are ass-holes and there are a few but far many more who are not.

It's a fairly recent coined term.
The concept is exactly as you described though

[Cavebear]

You left out the part where the guy cut her up into 12 pieces and sent the parts to the different tribes of Israel-and it hadn't been said that she had died first!

My bookmarks of outrageous parts of the bible are a bit limited these days.  I lost the best ones a few years ago.  Still, I find what I can...

[Unbeliever]

I have them mostly memorized, as I have such fun showing them to Christians.

[Cavebear]

I have them mostly memorized, as I have such fun showing them to Christians.

I don't have that great a memory (and therefore admire yours).

[Unbeliever]

lol Well, it's not like I've memorized 60,000 digits of pi, or anything like that!