Toxic Masculinity

[Shiranu]

Something I HATE about this sudden rush to "end toxic masculinity" is that the movement to do so is literally not even doing anything.

So outside of trying to address the issue and starting dialog over it, what do you propose "the left" do to fix the problem of machismo culture? For example, this thread has been overwhelmingly trying to point out why it's bad and explaining why it's bad, and to Munch's credit I feel he has focused more on trying to bring attention to positive aspects of masculinity rather than just oppose it for the sake of opposing it... but even then, there were multiple times where it felt like I was having to have an honest dialog and it just hitting a brick wall.

The problem is I feel that Munch's reaction is relatively calm and civil compared to people further down what ever spectrum that is, and even with him it felt less like a debate and more like a series of...

A. This is my position.
B. Well, this is my position.
A. Okay, well this is my position.
B. Fine, but this is my position.

When even two people who are closer ideologically cannot have a discussion on a subject because it becomes more about "left vs right" rather than "opinion vs opinion", then how can we expect people further left than me to want to engage in debate, or expect people further "right" to engage in a debate instead of a shit-throwing contest?


The only option then is for people on the left to enforce fixes on "toxic masculinity" regardless of what the right wants, and that seems like even more of a losing proposition. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. And that is true for far more than just machismo.

[Cavebear]

Saw the title of this thread, and before I even clicked I knew that the first response would be someone revving up the anti-feminist circle jerk. *sigh* Never change, AF.com.

I'm just going to copy and paste from Urban Dictionary real quick before giving me $0.02.
Think of things that are traditionally thought of as "male virtues." Toxic masculinity is a subversion of those male virtues that ultimately harms men in some way. In other words, if we assume that masculinity is a good thing, then toxic masculinity is when too much of a good thing causes it to become harmful. That's the simplest way I can think of to explain it without over-simplifying it too much.

I have met many men who were "toxic".  They ranged from athletes to office workers to laborers to husbands I met.  What they have in common is a profound dismissal of women as existing for any purpose of than sex and domestic service.  I argued with them to no avail.  They are unchangeable in attitude.

[PickelledEggs]

The thing is. Fuck urban dictionary. We know what toxic masculinity is. address the problem. Toxic masculinity is a problem, but its a result of multiple different things that need to be tackled. Copy/pasting what toxic masculinity is trivial and irritating and it doesn't do jack shit other than cause people to not want to listen to you.

You think people don't see a pattern with males being violent. Everyone sees that. no one denies it. spamming terminology at people isn't helping anything. No one is going to care about what super cool word you have. We want results and we want proposed action. This isn't an anti feminist rant. This is a "please address the issues that are causing a pattern in men to be violent" rant. And many of those things I brought up in my last couple posts.

[PickelledEggs]

So outside of trying to address the issue and starting dialog over it, what do you propose "the left" do to fix the problem of machismo culture? For example, this thread has been overwhelmingly trying to point out why it's bad and explaining why it's bad, and to Munch's credit I feel he has focused more on trying to bring attention to positive aspects of masculinity rather than just oppose it for the sake of opposing it... but even then, there were multiple times where it felt like I was having to have an honest dialog and it just hitting a brick wall.

The problem is I feel that Munch's reaction is relatively calm and civil compared to people further down what ever spectrum that is, and even with him it felt less like a debate and more like a series of...

A. This is my position.
B. Well, this is my position.
A. Okay, well this is my position.
B. Fine, but this is my position.

When even two people who are closer ideologically cannot have a discussion on a subject because it becomes more about "left vs right" rather than "opinion vs opinion", then how can we expect people further left than me to want to engage in debate, or expect people further "right" to engage in a debate instead of a shit-throwing contest?


The only option then is for people on the left to enforce fixes on "toxic masculinity" regardless of what the right wants, and that seems like even more of a losing proposition. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. And that is true for far more than just machismo.

One thing that is paramount that we need to start doing is stop buying in to identity politics. Stop feeding that cancer of a machine.

"I identify as a manly man. I don't need help. I don't feel emotional pain" Not just that one, but all of them.... but since the topic of this thread is toxic masculinity, that is the example I will give for that point.

Another is we need to help parents be better parents. How we do that, I haven't thought of that too much, so I don't have a clear answer, but it could be something as simple as making sure parents have the knowledge of how to discipline their kids, without physically intimidating them, with creating a base layer of respect for people around them and most of all compassion for others. This one needs to be workshopped a bit to make it a bit more refined, but i do think there are plenty of unfit parents that cause this circle of shitty kids that turn in to shitty adults. For instance, I had a kid last summer, while I was teaching summer art camp pin another boy against the wall with his arm forced up in to his neck. He has shitty absent parents, and it's causing the kid to become shitty because he isn't learning proper interaction skill sets. This will cause him to do horrible in school and also affect how he matures in to an adult. He will be the exact embodiment of the problem we are talking about in this thread, and it comes down to his parents not giving a shit/ not knowing how to be parents.

These are but two ideas, I think I have more, but I also have just taken sleeping pills because I have to wake up in the morning to instruct a private student.

[PickelledEggs]

And yes, it is just "this is my position" with the recent "end toxic masculinity" stuff. That is why I was sure to include that we need to address the points that I mentioned, plus more that I may have left out.

Because most of what it is, is just "THIS IS WHAT MEN DO", not what is causing it. not how to fix what is causing it. not anything productive.... just basically shoving men's noses in shit like they're dogs. Even the men that you wouldn't identify as a "toxic male" are grouped in to it a lot of the time. This causes resistance. If you say "you are my enemy" enough times, they will eventually become your enemy, whether they were on your side or not to begin with

[Cavebear]

And yes, it is just "this is my position" with the recent "end toxic masculinity" stuff. That is why I was sure to include that we need to address the points that I mentioned, plus more that I may have left out.

Because most of what it is, is just "THIS IS WHAT MEN DO", not what is causing it. not how to fix what is causing it. not anything productive.... just basically shoving men's noses in shit like they're dogs. Even the men that you wouldn't identify as a "toxic male" are grouped in to it a lot of the time. This causes resistance. If you say "you are my enemy" enough times, they will eventually become your enemy, whether they were on your side or not to begin with

This isn't "what men do"  It is what "some men do".  Some are like that, some aren't. 

But I want to say something else.  In high school, the girls went for the big strong boys who matured fastest and treated them like dirt.  In college, the women were (mostly, not always) the same.  They still wanted the big strong guys though. 

And I decided not to play in the game any longer.

Sexual characteristics are driven by choice of the other gender.  Men like women with big breasts, curvey hips, and soft skin.  Women like guys with broad shoulders, fearlessness, and a bit of reckless behavior.  That's what drives sexual selection.  Same in other animals, BTW!

Male lions don't have big manes because it helps them hunt.  Peacocks don't have extravagant tails for any survival reason.  In every species, one gender controls the apperance and mating actions of the other.  In humans, it is slightly equal.  Have fun thinking about that.

[Baruch]

I have met many men who were "toxic".  They ranged from athletes to office workers to laborers to husbands I met.  What they have in common is a profound dismissal of women as existing for any purpose of than sex and domestic service.  I argued with them to no avail.  They are unchangeable in attitude.

Good observation.  Fortunately I don't get involved in other people's family abuse situations, even cops fear to intervene.  Sorry if you were so exposed to other people's dysfunctions.  Eww.

More recent post ... another good post ... yes, it is biology.  But we don't have to be so predatory.  Predation is a spectrum, we need some predation, just not too much.  Of course some people (the toxic males) want the rest of us to be nice herbivores.

[Munch]

This isn't "what men do"  It is what "some men do".  Some are like that, some aren't. 

But I want to say something else.  In high school, the girls went for the big strong boys who matured fastest and treated them like dirt.  In college, the women were (mostly, not always) the same.  They still wanted the big strong guys though. 

And I decided not to play in the game any longer.

Sexual characteristics are driven by choice of the other gender.  Men like women with big breasts, curvey hips, and soft skin.  Women like guys with broad shoulders, fearlessness, and a bit of reckless behavior.  That's what drives sexual selection.  Same in other animals, BTW!

Male lions don't have big manes because it helps them hunt.  Peacocks don't have extravagant tails for any survival reason.  In every species, one gender controls the apperance and mating actions of the other.  In humans, it is slightly equal.  Have fun thinking about that.

I know in my case, I'm drawn to big, butch hairy men far more then skinny or soft tone guys physically.



That said, I'm never drawn to the douchebags, ones who treat others like dirt, the other aspects of strength, being grounded and fearlessness are attractive, but to this day I've never gotten this thing of people enjoying having someone with an imposing character treat them like dirt, it strikes me as Stockholm syndrome.

[Mike Cl]

I have found that much that is toxic in mankind is because of organized religion.  That organized religions are all (with only a few exceptions--Wicca, maybe??) patriarchal in nature.  This allows men to assume their 'rightful' place as the lord and master of their own household--their castle.  Men can become 'toxic' quite easily and still be socially acceptable--and many women are brainwashed by said religion to believe this is what god wants.   

[Hijiri Byakuren]

The thing is. Fuck urban dictionary. We know what toxic masculinity is.

Evidently not, because I read a lot of posts by people who seemed to be arguing about what toxic masculinity is and if it even exists. Judging by the "likes" on my post, it would seem that we are all on the same page now. Thus, a productive conversation about possible solutions can now ensue.

And as solutions go, a good place to start is education. The more people are aware of and understand a problem, the more time they will spend trying to think of ways to overcome the problem and/or raise the next generation(s) to value masculine virtues without going into toxic territory. Not the quickest or sexiest solution, not to mention vague as fuck, but it's a good starting point. Forum threads like this one where we discuss the nature of toxic masculinity are one such method of educating people and getting them to think. After all, it's gotten you to do some thinking, as evidenced by your posts. :D

[Munch]

Evidently not, because I read a lot of posts by people who seemed to be arguing about what toxic masculinity is and if it even exists. Judging by the "likes" on my post, it would seem that we are all on the same page now. Thus, a productive conversation about possible solutions can now ensue.

And as solutions go, a good place to start is education. The more people are aware of and understand a problem, the more time they will spend trying to think of ways to overcome the problem and/or raise the next generation(s) to value masculine virtues without going into toxic territory. Not the quickest or sexiest solution, not to mention vague as fuck, but it's a good starting point. Forum threads like this one where we discuss the nature of toxic masculinity are one such method of educating people and getting them to think. After all, it's gotten you to do some thinking, as evidenced by your posts. :D

I'd wish for it too, and education is a solution, but fact is, as I said before, environment, upbringing, social standards country to country, everything is so varied it could never be a guarantee, the many aspects of culture and society the world over is just to complex. Making it available is a good thing, but in my mind, there are so many people in the world today, just like with homelessness, starvation, joblessess, there isn't enough room to teach everyone the right virtues and values.

[Cavebear]

Evidently not, because I read a lot of posts by people who seemed to be arguing about what toxic masculinity is and if it even exists. Judging by the "likes" on my post, it would seem that we are all on the same page now. Thus, a productive conversation about possible solutions can now ensue.

And as solutions go, a good place to start is education. The more people are aware of and understand a problem, the more time they will spend trying to think of ways to overcome the problem and/or raise the next generation(s) to value masculine virtues without going into toxic territory. Not the quickest or sexiest solution, not to mention vague as fuck, but it's a good starting point. Forum threads like this one where we discuss the nature of toxic masculinity are one such method of educating people and getting them to think. After all, it's gotten you to do some thinking, as evidenced by your posts. :D

I think a "toxic male" is one who abuses a woman by strength or position.  That is never right.  But let's acknowledge that there are "toxic women" too.  I have met both.  Neither is healthy for society.

[PickelledEggs]

Evidently not, because I read a lot of posts by people who seemed to be arguing about what toxic masculinity is and if it even exists. Judging by the "likes" on my post, it would seem that we are all on the same page now. Thus, a productive conversation about possible solutions can now ensue.

And as solutions go, a good place to start is education. The more people are aware of and understand a problem, the more time they will spend trying to think of ways to overcome the problem and/or raise the next generation(s) to value masculine virtues without going into toxic territory. Not the quickest or sexiest solution, not to mention vague as fuck, but it's a good starting point. Forum threads like this one where we discuss the nature of toxic masculinity are one such method of educating people and getting them to think. After all, it's gotten you to do some thinking, as evidenced by your posts. :D

I never disagreed that toxic masculinity was a problem. I said it was from square one. If you want to be vapid, at least be accurate.

[aitm]

TBH, I was actually unaware that such a "thing" was being defined as "toxic" whatever. Ass-holes are ass-holes and there are a few but far many more who are not.

You are not going to get a fix in any simple way because there are tons of sub-sets  that produce ass-holes so each has to be identified and a solution.

Ass-holes come from:

Abused as children
Bullied as children
Over bearing father
Missing father/mother
Dead father/mother
Gang involvement
and probably a dozen more.

Yes, there are a bunch of men who are ass-holes but the nice guys I believe outnumber the ass-holes 50 to 1.

Secondly, and by far more contentious an argument is that many people put themselves in situations with these ass-holes. I know in my life I have had  at least 4 physical fights with guys who slapped around their girlfriends in a public setting but damn if the girls were still there the next day getting whacked again. When we attempt to fix the "toxic assholes" we need to figure out how to fix those attracted to them.

[Baruch]

I have found that much that is toxic in mankind is because of organized religion.  That organized religions are all (with only a few exceptions--Wicca, maybe??) patriarchal in nature.  This allows men to assume their 'rightful' place as the lord and master of their own household--their castle.  Men can become 'toxic' quite easily and still be socially acceptable--and many women are brainwashed by said religion to believe this is what god wants.

Religion just reflects biology.  If your wife is your husband ... good for you, but most won't like that.