Author Topic: Toxic Masculinity  (Read 2890 times)

Online Munch

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2018, 09:35:54 PM »
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I actually just thought of a word that is better than toxic masculinity though, and that is the Spanish word machismo... basically the definition of toxic masculinity, but rather through, as GSO said, a pathological lens... it is a term that is almost exclusively viewed through the lens of "manliness"... it is all about the exaggeration of certain masculine features that have useful purposes (protecting and providing for one's family) to the point that they become more harmful than beneficial.

So if everyone is happy with that, I am more than happy to start referring to it as machismo or machismo masculinity rather than toxic.

Call it whatever you want. Fact that your looking for something else to call it doesn't change the fact you can only find the negative connotations in masculine behavior.

Offline Baruch

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2018, 09:36:09 PM »
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I don't think any one is proposing we should be.

But you just claimed it, rhetorically.  Maybe more words on your part would help.
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Offline PickelledEggs

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2018, 09:37:55 PM »
I think both should be discussed. And I agree there are some very insecure males and toxic masculinity in this world, but I also find it interesting that the main people that talk about it never want to even acknowledge toxic femininity... Toxic feminism... etc

Women are DISGUSTING towards each other. In fact, a few of my female friends, at least the ones that are vocal about it say on a regular basis that they have never been so degraded as when talked down to by another women.... that they're cutthroat and ruthless with their head games. This of course isn't me that is saying it, but women saying this about other women.

Now, I understand that the topic is toxic masculinity, but yeah. I get it. I agree. Yada yada yada. Not much to say other than I find it interesting that women (understandably) want nothing to do when men have something to say about women, but apparently they have a huge say in when it comes down to issues about men. Power comes in many forms, and when it comes down to it, women have the power in these spheres.

While I understand the reasoning why women don't want men to speak about issues concerning them, I disagree. I think men AND women should be able to speak and discuss between themselves about issues of the other sex and vice-versa, but unfortunately, that isn't happening currently.... and possibly any time soon.
Now, why am I saying this seemingly off-topic stuff? Because as much as I agree with the woman in the video about how sexism is hurting men as well. A huge percentage of men will discard the points to be made because they are being made by a woman.... and they are going to discard it BECAUSE they have been denied a voice in so many things. Sad, really. Discussions should be had, but as the battle of the sexes exponentially becomes more and more political and almost religious, discussions will be had less and less. Progress will slow more and more. Equality will never happen and if anything in regards to change, will just flip upside down, with women oppress everything like feminists insist men actively still do today. That is not equality, that is a hijacking.

And then the argument comes up from feminists "oh so you don't like the idea of being oppressed? well we've been oppressed for years!" Yeah well so what? that isn't an excuse to start oppressing yourself. And I don't oppress anyone. Most men don't. But if you ask your average feminist, they would argue the opposite, even if it means according to them that not actively giving up your "privilege as a male" is actively oppressing, which I have been told before.


So tl;dr, -1 yes toxic masculinity is a problem. -2 sexism hurts men too. And -3 This video isnt going to do shit because "why would anyone listen to people that insist they are unqualified to speak on so many issues?"
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"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2018, 09:42:50 PM »
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Call it whatever you want. Fact that your looking for something else to call it doesn't change the fact you can only find the negative connotations in masculine behavior.

On the first page he agreed that toxic femininity exists.

Men and women are different. Both identities 'can' be toxic, and when they are it also looks different, but neither are inherently toxic.

Pretty sure you both believe the preceding to be true, so-??

Online Shiranu

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2018, 09:45:20 PM »
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Call it whatever you want. Fact that your looking for something else to call it doesn't change the fact you can only find the negative connotations in masculine behavior.

I'm legitimately perplexed why you think that because I acknowledge masculinity can be problematic, I therefore am incapable of having positive views of men.

I believe toxic feminism and femininity exists. That doesn't mean I don't have positive views of feminism and femininity.

Again, I am honestly confused; are you obsessing over this and me to change the subject, or do you legitimately believe that having a negative opinion on one thing something does wrong makes you incapable of having a positive opinion about the things it does right?

I want to believe it's innocent, but this is not the first time you have obsessed over me to either avoid the topic or admit you were wrong.
I've Got Love, Fuck Your Money.

Don't feed the douche-trolls.

Offline Baruch

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2018, 09:48:14 PM »
Yes, women on women is an interesting spectator sport, but definitely a blood sport! ;-)
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Online Munch

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2018, 10:00:18 PM »
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I'm legitimately perplexed why you think that because I acknowledge masculinity can be problematic, I therefore am incapable of having positive views of men.

I believe toxic feminism and femininity exists. That doesn't mean I don't have positive views of feminism and femininity.

Again, I am honestly confused; are you obsessing over this and me to change the subject, or do you legitimately believe that having a negative opinion on one thing something does wrong makes you incapable of having a positive opinion about the things it does right?

I want to believe it's innocent, but this is not the first time you have obsessed over me to either avoid the topic or admit you were wrong.

I'm going to set you a challenge, since it's 3am here and I'm going to bed. I want you to link me an example of positive masculinity in western society, don't have to write anything out just post a link to something showing positive traditional masculinity behaviour, just to see what you find. I'll have a look in the morning.

Offline Baruch

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2018, 10:07:20 PM »
Life is difficult ... either we have complexes over our father (or lack thereof) or complexes over our mother (or lack thereof).
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Online Shiranu

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2018, 10:44:11 PM »
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I'm going to set you a challenge, since it's 3am here and I'm going to bed. I want you to link me an example of positive masculinity in western society, don't have to write anything out just post a link to something showing positive traditional masculinity behaviour, just to see what you find. I'll have a look in the morning.

Desire to improve the community, such as organizations like Ceasefire work towards, that go into districts with extreme gang violence and try to negotiate peaceful resolutions to conflicts.

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Likewise doing things to help the community, or help people, without need to brag about it or advertise it, but rather just doing what you can and letting that be reward enough, such as Mike Illitch who paid Rosa Parks' rent for years without ever mentioning it.

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Being willing to stand-up to injustice at risk to yourself rather than silently watching it happen, or even worse breaking down into peer pressure and joining in... but also to have the strength to not resort to violence in order to get your ways.



But so much more involves something that we don't get trophies, or articles, or awards for... they are just how we treat others. Do we teach our children how to be well behaved and respectful? Do we see someone needing help and offer? Do we respect our elders and listen to them when they have something valuable to teach us? Do we treat our wives, girlfriends, husbands, boyfriends with dignity? Do we provide for our families rather than deplete their resources?

These things don't have links, but they are frankly a thousand times more important than any big act a man can do; one man treating his wife or mother with respect is worth a hundred thousand men who's best trait is they can lift a heavy weight or kick that ball real good, or a father teaching his children how to be respectful and kind, self sufficient, is worth more than any amount of men who don't.

We don't receive articles for these things, and that's fine... we should behave like men because we are men, not because we want everyone to think we are.
I've Got Love, Fuck Your Money.

Don't feed the douche-trolls.

Offline Baruch

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2018, 12:31:45 AM »
"we should behave like men because we are men" ... and we are not women, let the women do femininity, they do it better than us ;-)

However ... MLK was better as a martyr than as a living saint.  Just saying ...
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Offline pr126

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2018, 06:17:00 AM »
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From Wikipedia:
Quote
The concept of toxic masculinity is used in psychology to describe certain traditional male norms of behavior in the United States and Europe that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Such "toxic" masculine norms include the traits of dominance, devaluation of women, extreme self-reliance, and the suppression of emotions.

Interesting that this is a problem in the USA and Europe. I suspect this refers to white men only?

Apparently, this does not exist anywhere else in the world.

One wonders why [some] women prefer You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login and gang members over more docile males.
Is it the thrill, or are they more likely to be protected by "bad boys"?

Why is Europe importing millions of toxic masculinity if it is harmful?
Raping of women and children is becoming a norm in Europe. Nobody wants to hear that.   

 
 
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 06:25:01 AM by pr126 »
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Offline Baruch

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2018, 07:06:00 AM »
Europe has repeatedly been invaded by bad boys ... Neanderthals, Cro-Magnons (who are a mix of Neanderthal and modern men), used goat sellers (who brought in agriculture from the ME), Kurgans (who had hot wheels ... nobody had wheels before they arrived).  The Persians, Huns, Arabs, Mongols and Turks all tried and failed.  Europe already had wheels, so the European girls were harder to impress.  Refugees were an internal displacement problem ... see Germans, Vikings and Magyars.  Jewish refugees and Gypsies were a small part of the migration problem ... but go ahead, blame everything on us!
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Online Munch

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2018, 09:33:27 AM »
I couldn't watch the video you uploaded Shiranu, its blocked outside of the U.S

But the example leads as it should be, that a strong masculine role model is someone who is strong, determined, has the courage to not back down from something, able to lead by example. Those traits exist, not in everyone perhaps, but the ones that have it stand out.
Those however are traits that can become toxic based on other aspects of the individual, things that poison the well.

This example today in the Metro speaks for itself as an example of someone with toxic masculine traits:

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Quote


Anthony Joshua has been branded as ‘misogynistic’  after he admitted to treating his son Joseph differently from his niece.   The backlash came after a year-old interview resurfaced online where the world heavyweight champion said he is not strict with his son because of his gender. In the March 2017 GQ interview, the 28-year-old said that he wants his son to ‘spread his wings’ but that he is ‘stricter’ with his niece.

‘I don’t think I’m that strict with Joseph, I don’t know why,’ he said.’But with my niece I’m strict. I think it is because she is older, but also he’s a boy – he’s going to be a man’s man, he’ll want to spread his wings, be a Jack-the-lad, build his character.’ He added: ‘But I am sure there are things I will be strict about. But with my niece, there is none of that Jack-the-lad nonsense for her!’ ‘My view is you have to be a good woman, respectful, one day you will be someone’s wife, you have to learn family morals… what it is to be a good woman.’ His comments did not go down well with fans on Twitter who slammed the boxer for his viewpoint.

AJ also said that he works hard to inspire his son. ‘He needs to look at me like I am a superhero, and that he can come to me for whatever he needs. That’s one of the reasons I am looking to improve myself, be smarter, so that I can help him on his path.

This here is an example of a toxic male, having a predetermined idea of how his son will be and how he needs to mold his niece into being a certain way too.

In contrast, I came across this article back a few years ago.

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Heroic Firefighter's Story



After 21 years of fighting some of New York's toughest fires, including a 1998 blaze that almost killed him, firefighter Timothy Stackpole proudly served his first day as captain on Sept. 10.

The next day, he was one of the hundreds of firemen who answered the call after the World Trade Center was struck by two airliners — and one of the 343 who was killed when the twin towers collapsed.

Stackpole, who was a legend in the Fire Department after surviving the 1998 fire, was dedicated to his job to the end.

"The greatest high you can get in life is by helping somebody," he said in a public service announcement that was taped before his death. He taped the message for the hospital that helped him recover from the terrible burns he suffered in the 1998 fire.

Two Passions: Family and Fire

Stackpole grew up in the Brooklyn neighborhood of Marine Park, the same area where he would eventually raise his own five kids.

His family was his top priority, said his wife Tara. "That was like a million dollars to him. He just enjoyed being with the kids every day," she said.

Stackpole was also passionate about his job. While fighting a four-alarm fire at a Brooklyn rowhouse in the summer of 1998, he heard that a woman was trapped inside. Without hesitation, he and two colleagues did what firemen do: they ran into the flames to save someone.

While the three firefighters were inside, the floor collapsed without warning.

"My whole body was trapped up to my neck," Stackpole says in the PSA. "The fire was still roaring all around us … I remember the excruciating pain in my ankles, burned to the bone. And I remember just praying to God: Just let me die bravely."

Stackpole and his colleagues, Lt. James Blackmore and Capt. Scott LaPiedra, were trapped in the fire for almost a half-hour.

"I had this tremendous sadness that I wasn't going to see my children again, growing up, walking my daughter down the aisle," he says.

Thirty-four of his colleagues put their own lives at risk to save the three men. They got them out, but Blackmore died at the scene. Stackpole and LaPiedra were rushed into ambulances with terrible burns.

Firefighter Michael Brady rode with Stackpole. "In that moment, he was still Timmy," Brady recalled. "He was still comforting the EMT, who were shocked with what was going on, and cheering them on: 'Thank you brother. Thank you for helping me.' His zeal could never be squashed."

The Will to Walk

Stackpole was taken to the New York Weill Cornell Burn Center. With burns over 30 percent of his body, he was near death for many days. At best, his wife thought he would never walk again.

"The pain he suffered was incredible," she said. When doctors attempted to get Stackpole back on his feet, he fainted from the pain.

After 66 days, Stackpole limped out of the hospital to a hero's welcome, returning to work soon afterward. Though he could have retired from the department and gotten a pension, Stackpole chose not to.

"It was his life, his calling," said his wife. "He couldn't not do it. This is what he felt he was supposed to do in his life."

His Last Day at Work

Tara Stackpole remembers Sept. 11 beginning as a normal day. "It was a normal routine Tuesday. He kissed us goodbye and told me he loved me," she said.

When she heard about the attack on the World Trade Center, she immediately raced from her mother's house to pick up her children.

"I stopped at a light and I realized I was right in front of the building he was injured in in 1998, and I just had an awful feeling he wasn't coming home that night," she remembers. "It's a sign. I mean how odd could it be that I ended up there? It was almost like a reminder to me that I had had those three years."

The City Mourns

It turned out that Timmy Stackpole was among the first to get to Ground Zero. He led a team that ran into 2 World Trade Center to rescue victims after it was struck. He and the others all perished when the tower collapsed.

Recovery workers found his body a week later.

"They told me they draped a flag and when they turned to walk out, all the people at the site formed an honor guard and saluted. It was beautiful," said Tara. "They came straight from the site to tell me they found him and brought him home."

Ten thousand people attended Stackpole's funeral, including Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, who called him "one of the most exceptional human beings I've ever met."

At the station house on Sheffield Avenue, they painted Stackpole's name on the front of the ladder truck — along with his nickname, "Jobs," because he loved what he did so much.

"He was the pride of Sheffield Ave.," said Lt. Kevin Schamberger of Ladder Company 103. "He was. He always will be. He made us rise to the occasion."


now that to me is an example of true masculine role model, with the best traits of being a man, strong willed, determined, never giving up, standing his ground.

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2018, 10:14:29 AM »
When the word 'toxic' is attached to any idea or label it automatically makes that idea or label, well, toxic--bad.  Any idea or label can be expressed in a toxic manner.  As a Yankee fan, I can act like a toxic Yankee fan and be totally obnoxious.  To say masculinity or femininity is good or bad is to be too simplistic.  Both are good and necessary for a healthy society--taken to the extreme, not so.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline pr126

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2018, 10:18:22 AM »
I think that the term "toxic masculinity" was created by neo Marxist for the feminist.
Another bone to chew on.

Note that this does not apply to Middle Eastern, Asian, African, Central/South American etc. men.
It is restricted to American or European men.
Certainly, it is not an expression I would expect to hear in Rio, Riad, Moskwa, Jo'burg or Tabriz.

That is why the Marxist influence is suspect.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 11:53:58 AM by pr126 »
"Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their free will."
 - Joseph Goebbels

 

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