Author Topic: Toxic Masculinity  (Read 2874 times)

Online Munch

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2018, 11:23:44 AM »
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Toxic masculinity does not infer that masculinity is toxic.

You're right, and calling a feminazi an aggressive bitch doesn't infer feminism is a bitch.

Offline Mermaid

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2018, 11:38:01 AM »
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You're right, and calling a feminazi an aggressive bitch doesn't infer feminism is a bitch.
What?
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Offline aitm

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2018, 01:45:11 PM »
I simply couldn't get past 3 minutes of it and I jumped to around 6ish and....sorry I just can't watch vids that do not seem focused and to the point. I have the same problem with meetings. I want them direct, pointed and short. If you have a bunch of fluff involved that you think somehow sideways slips other point in , you lose me.

I am sure there are some great point in it. I like em bulleted.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2018, 03:31:57 PM »
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Toxic masculinity does not infer that masculinity is toxic.

And homophobia isn't an actual phobia. I get annoyed when people take attitudes and behaviors and package them in a label that causes even more confusion. I think some writers do this on purpose to get an emotional reaction and generate buzz.
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

― Pema Chödrön

Offline Mermaid

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2018, 03:38:48 PM »
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And homophobia isn't an actual phobia. I get annoyed when people take attitudes and behaviors and package them in a label that causes even more confusion. I think some writers do this on purpose to get an emotional reaction and generate buzz.

Actually I think homophobia really is a fear in a lot of cases. A fear that homosexuals will infect you or something.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2018, 04:33:52 PM »
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Actually I think homophobia really is a fear in a lot of cases. A fear that homosexuals will infect you or something.

This is exactly what I mean. Homophobia could be used to refer to pathological anxiety and avoidant behavior of homosexuals that causes the individual distress but most often isn't. If someone is bigotted against homosexuals they are often labeled homophobic even though this person may have no anxiety being around homosexuals and just regard sex between men as disgusting or consider feminine behavior by men unacceptable. The homophobic label was intended to pathologize these attitudes, even though there may be no actual pathology. The implication is that people who are homophobic are mentally ill, which isn't necessarily true and minimizes the needs of people who truly have mental health problems. "Toxic masculinity" similarly implies there something poisonous and unhealthy about attitudes and behaviors associated with "masculinity" (a contentious term)-- it is pathologizing. This doesn't mean I'm minimizing the issues people are referring to when discussing toxic masculinity or homophobia, I think they need addressing, but I don't like the pathologizing of social attitudes. Granted, discussing "harmful societal gender expectations" doesn't sound as sexy as discussing "toxic masculinity."
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

― Pema Chödrön

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2018, 06:34:17 PM »
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Toxic masculinity does not infer that masculinity is toxic.

Correct. It just refers to a type of masculinity that is toxic. It exists, of course, and so does toxic femininity. The female and male ego manifests differently. And when they are toxic, they look different, too.

I agree with basically everything shrianu has said in this thread.

Even so, there are better commentators on these issues than these corporate-owned shows with their cookie-cutter libfag pundits. They all talk and look the same; these drones you watch. Eyes slightly creased, risen brow, neurotic movement, matter-of-fact speech pattern. This bitch instantly had me recall that vox faggot with the same set-up.



Just drones out of a factory to serve the elite. How do you watch this absolute fucking garbage.

Online Shiranu

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2018, 08:49:41 PM »
@Gilgamesh: Honestly, I feel the exact same way about the quality and character of the presenters in opposite videos that are posted here, so that's really no skin off of my back.

@GSO: To each their own. The English language in particular is really filled with "battle metaphors" and using negatives to describe something. There are certainly flaws to this system, but it's the system our language has evolved to use after hundreds and hundreds of years.

By all means use better terminology if you want to, and spend an extra four, six, ten, twenty plus words trying to describe what you mean, but at the end of the day it is much easier to just say "toxic masculinity" instead of, "Societal norms that are considered 'traditional' for men to adhere to and lead to destructive and harmful aggression and self-image to the men in said society, generally centered around the demand of a man to be dominant, sexually bountiful, holding feminine-traits to be inferior, self-reliant to an extreme and the suppression of any emotions that might show weakness". 

The example you used of "harmful societal gender expectations" is extremely vague, where as Toxic Masc. in two words conveys that entire definition... and honestly a whole boatload more.
I've Got Love, Fuck Your Money.

Don't feed the douche-trolls.

Online Munch

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2018, 09:01:11 PM »
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@Gilgamesh: Honestly, I feel the exact same way about the quality and character of the presenters in opposite videos that are posted here, so that's really no skin off of my back.

@GSO: To each their own. The English language in particular is really filled with "battle metaphors" and using negatives to describe something. There are certainly flaws to this system, but it's the system our language has evolved to use after hundreds and hundreds of years.

By all means use better terminology if you want to, and spend an extra four, six, ten, twenty plus words trying to describe what you mean, but at the end of the day it is much easier to just say "toxic masculinity" instead of, "Societal norms that are considered 'traditional' for men to adhere to and lead to destructive and harmful aggression and self-image to the men in said society, generally centered around the demand of a man to be dominant, sexually bountiful, holding feminine-traits to be inferior, self-reliant to an extreme and the suppression of any emotions that might show weakness". 

The example you used of "harmful societal gender expectations" is extremely vague, where as Toxic Masc. in two words conveys that entire definition... and honestly a whole boatload more.

you really do only have a black and white opinion on masculinity don't you? Its no wonder you don't adhere to the horseshoe theory either, you don't consider anything inbetween. All I'm seeing is you decrying masculinity taking aspects of what being masculine is, and only taking examples the negative.

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Offline Baruch

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2018, 09:13:08 PM »
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And homophobia isn't an actual phobia. I get annoyed when people take attitudes and behaviors and package them in a label that causes even more confusion. I think some writers do this on purpose to get an emotional reaction and generate buzz.

Phobias are of course, irrational.  Rationalists would say that none of them exist (just as they would claim that valid religious faith doesn't exist).  Psychology however laughs at rationalism.

As pointed out, not all people are actual phobic personalities, they may have other reasons for their attitude.  I can give a little evidence that I think applies ... I have known only one woman at work who was definitely anti-male, because she said so in public.  But she had been abused by the males in her family.  Post-trauma isn't exactly phobia either.  Rational fear ... even if misplaced, isn't completely wrong, just exaggerated.  A phobia would be an irrational fear.  So if you were a man, who was raped by other men in prison, your fear of men might not be a phobia, even after release.  Please consult an actual counselor for psychological problems.

Of course, I would be the last one here, to say we need to chuck out tradition, carte blanche.  I don't think men need to be more like Kurgan savages, but we need to be strong enough to deal with such savages.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 09:30:16 PM by Baruch »
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Online Shiranu

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2018, 09:22:02 PM »
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you really do only have a black and white opinion on masculinity don't you? Its no wonder you don't adhere to the horseshoe theory either, you don't consider anything inbetween. All I'm seeing is you decrying masculinity taking aspects of what being masculine is, and only taking examples the negative.

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If I don't share the same definition of masculinity as you, I have a black and white view on masculinity.

I'm sorry people have you believing stuff like that.
I've Got Love, Fuck Your Money.

Don't feed the douche-trolls.

Online Shiranu

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2018, 09:31:35 PM »
I actually just thought of a word that is better than toxic masculinity though, and that is the Spanish word machismo... basically the definition of toxic masculinity, but rather through, as GSO said, a pathological lens... it is a term that is almost exclusively viewed through the lens of "manliness"... it is all about the exaggeration of certain masculine features that have useful purposes (protecting and providing for one's family) to the point that they become more harmful than beneficial.




So if everyone is happy with that, I am more than happy to start referring to it as machismo or machismo masculinity rather than toxic. In someways hypermasculine does seem almost applicable as well... but I don't think that hypermasculine necessarily carries a tone of "toxicity" and desire to enforce your ideas of what a man is on others like machismo does.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 09:34:12 PM by Shiranu »
I've Got Love, Fuck Your Money.

Don't feed the douche-trolls.

Offline Baruch

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2018, 09:32:18 PM »
Shiranu ... so why be black-white?  That seems intellectually weak to me.  As complete wet noodle relativity would also be.  Idealism should be more nuanced than puritanism.  Not black, white or medium grey, but rainbow.

Yes, perhaps "muy macho" is taking masculinity too far ... like going out into the street looking for a gang fight or a gang bitch to f***.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 09:34:21 PM by Baruch »
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Online Munch

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2018, 09:32:33 PM »
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If I don't share the same definition of masculinity as you, I have a black and white view on masculinity.

I'm sorry people have you believing stuff like that.

yeah yeah you think this came from others telling me it instead of learning it myself. Sorry but I wasn't indoctrinated at university by professors.

Online Shiranu

Re: Toxic Masculinity
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2018, 09:34:47 PM »
Quote
Shiranu ... so why be black-white?

I don't think any one is proposing we should be.
I've Got Love, Fuck Your Money.

Don't feed the douche-trolls.

 

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