Author Topic: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo  (Read 2411 times)

The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« on: January 18, 2018, 04:23:29 PM »
There's this small channel, an atheist YouTuber I like to watch called Prophet of Zod. He makes a lot of videos with really good arguments, taking flawed Christian thinking and simplifying them to show their errors. I thought his video today was particularly worth sharing, especially given one of the discussions that was going on in another recent thread.

To summarize, Zod points out that Christians have contradictory mindsets when it comes to religion and science. For their religion, they're often willing to accept impossible concepts, such as the Trinity, on the assumption that there is some incomprehensible explanation that our limited minds just can't understand. But then they turn around and say, "How can the universe come from nothing? This doesn't make any sense to me, so it must be wrong." So they're willing to take nonsense religious claims on faith, but they reject science because they don't understand it.

Then he also goes in to explain why scientists do not have the same contradictory mindset, only in reverse. While the religious makes up unintuitive ideas and just believes them on faith, science discovers concepts that seem unintuitive via observations. Science corrects itself when new information is made available, while religion remains fixed and its ideas are considered immune to criticism. Additionally, many of the things the religious consider unintuitive about science actually only seem that way because of own misunderstandings of what science actually says.

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« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 04:33:45 PM by Blackleaf »
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2018, 04:44:03 PM »
Great video - I've just subscribed to his channel.

Christians have been told that they'll burn in hell for eternity if they don't believe or if they even question what they've been told about God and Jesus. So their souls are at stake. So they have to do whatever it takes to continue their belief, or take an eternity of torture. If I really believed in hell I'd do exactly as they do and use any mental gymnastics that were necessary to keep me out of hell.
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"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up."
Lily Tomlin

Offline Hydra009

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2018, 05:39:46 PM »
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So they're willing to take nonsense religious claims on faith, but they reject science because they don't understand it.
They only treat some science this way, typically politically "controversial" subjects like the Big Bang, evolution, and climate change.  Coincidentally, Christians treat scientific ideas they don't want to believe with impossibly high skeptical standards and religious ideas they do want to believe with little to no skepticism.

Skepticism is selectively deployed - sicked on rival religions or threatening scientific ideas but brought to heel when it comes to one's preferred religion.

The problem is actually much worse than just mere hypocrisy - this sort of behavior is diagnostic of a mentality where reason no longer has any function except to defend one's preexisting religious beliefs and to impugn other beliefs with whatever arguments seem convincing, regardless of whether or not they're sound.

As skeptics, we might find a lot of the arguments these people use - like "How can you say God doesn't exist?  The world is beautiful!" to be illogical and almost impossibly moronic.  That's because these arguments aren't really intended to convince us - they're intended to sound convincing to people who already believe in God and who will approach it uncritically.

Offline Baruch

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2018, 08:47:15 PM »
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Great video - I've just subscribed to his channel.

Christians have been told that they'll burn in hell for eternity if they don't believe or if they even question what they've been told about God and Jesus. So their souls are at stake. So they have to do whatever it takes to continue their belief, or take an eternity of torture. If I really believed in hell I'd do exactly as they do and use any mental gymnastics that were necessary to keep me out of hell.

Mary Lou Retton you are not.

Hydra009 ... it is called Sophistry for a reason.
שלום

Online Cavebear

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2018, 02:28:21 PM »
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Mary Lou Retton you are not.

Hydra009 ... it is called Sophistry for a reason.

And they are called "sophomores" for a reason, too.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2018, 02:47:23 PM »
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Mary Lou Retton you are not.






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"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up."
Lily Tomlin

Online Cavebear

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2018, 02:48:47 PM »
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Obviously a freshman.  A sophomore would have hash in the pipe.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline trdsf

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2018, 07:42:30 PM »
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Obviously a freshman.  A sophomore would have hash in the pipe.
Unwarranted assumption -- you didn't see the pipe get loaded.  ;)
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Offline aitm

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2018, 09:02:05 AM »
I think one of the most overrated aspects one has to consider when dealing with believers is the emotional and ego-istic baggage they drag with them. They are heavily invested into this religion of theirs, bragging to their friends and family, spending time and resources trying to make sure whatever they hear is in agreement with their beliefs.

It is one thing for them to realize that they may be wrong, it is quite another for them to admit to others they are wrong.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Baruch

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2018, 09:11:57 AM »
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I think one of the most overrated aspects one has to consider when dealing with believers is the emotional and ego-istic baggage they drag with them. They are heavily invested into this religion of theirs, bragging to their friends and family, spending time and resources trying to make sure whatever they hear is in agreement with their beliefs.

It is one thing for them to realize that they may be wrong, it is quite another for them to admit to others they are wrong.

Same as politics.  And often the two are connected.
שלום

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2018, 05:21:49 PM »
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I think one of the most overrated aspects one has to consider when dealing with believers is the emotional and ego-istic baggage they drag with them. They are heavily invested into this religion of theirs, bragging to their friends and family, spending time and resources trying to make sure whatever they hear is in agreement with their beliefs.

It is one thing for them to realize that they may be wrong, it is quite another for them to admit to others they are wrong.

Many years ago a co-worker invited me to have dinner with him and his family, during the course of which I mentioned to his kids that we all came from star dust. You should've seen how quickly the parents were both on it, to say "no we weren't! God made us from the dust of the Earth!" I just shut up and left as soon as it was polite to do so.
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"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up."
Lily Tomlin

Offline Hydra009

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2018, 05:29:11 PM »
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Many years ago a co-worker invited me to have dinner with him and his family, during the course of which I mentioned to his kids that we all came from star dust. You should've seen how quickly the parents were both on it, to say "no we weren't! God made us from the dust of the Earth!" I just shut up and left as soon as it was polite to do so.
You should have asked them where they thought the "dust" of the Earth came from.  The whole stardust thing shouldn't even be an issue for religious people - they can allow the physical origin of the universe while also asserting their religious beliefs.  The objection doesn't make sense on any level.

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2018, 05:54:39 PM »
Well, they made it plain that the subject was entirely closed and they wanted no more such input from me, and I didn't feel it was up to me to school either them or their kids, so I just left as soon as I could.
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"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up."
Lily Tomlin

Online GrinningYMIR

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2018, 06:25:17 PM »
My coworkers are both highly religious and they ban any music that isn’t Christian rock and consistently ask if I wanna Go to church, but are generally alright with me when i say I’m not comfortable in churches and prefer to pray at home, and I’m busy anyway. (You guys can see the lie but hey it works in Texas.) it works for me actually because I get more hours since they want to go to Saturday Wednesday and Monday sermons. Perfect for both since they get to go do their thing and I get To chill at a post shop listening to linkin park for a few hours extra.
"Human history is a litany of blood shed over differing ideals of rulership and afterlife"

Governor of the 32nd Province of the New Lunar Republic. Luna Nobis Custodit

Re: The Giant Apologetic Switcheroo
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2018, 07:22:48 AM »
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There's this small channel, an atheist YouTuber I like to watch called Prophet of Zod. He makes a lot of videos with really good arguments, taking flawed Christian thinking and simplifying them to show their errors. I thought his video today was particularly worth sharing, especially given one of the discussions that was going on in another recent thread.

To summarize, Zod points out that Christians have contradictory mindsets when it comes to religion and science. For their religion, they're often willing to accept impossible concepts, such as the Trinity, on the assumption that there is some incomprehensible explanation that our limited minds just can't understand. But then they turn around and say, "How can the universe come from nothing? This doesn't make any sense to me, so it must be wrong." So they're willing to take nonsense religious claims on faith, but they reject science because they don't understand it.

Then he also goes in to explain why scientists do not have the same contradictory mindset, only in reverse. While the religious makes up unintuitive ideas and just believes them on faith, science discovers concepts that seem unintuitive via observations. Science corrects itself when new information is made available, while religion remains fixed and its ideas are considered immune to criticism. Additionally, many of the things the religious consider unintuitive about science actually only seem that way because of own misunderstandings of what science actually says.

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What does zod say about those who aren't trinnys and who use logic and their mental capacites along with belief to conclude their doctrine?

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