Author Topic: Oh dear.  (Read 4532 times)

Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2018, 03:27:12 PM »
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In referring to the God as depicted in the Bible, I'm absolutely certain that it does not exist. If that makes me arrogant or some sort of ego-maniac, then so be it.
The Bible contradicts itself on hard facts multiple times. You don't have to be a genius to understand that, even if a roughly-Christian creator entity did exist, most of the Bible would be lying about what it's actually like.

Ironically, the "Gnostics" had a particularly interesting take on that.

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In referring to gods of some other sort, perhaps some vague "something out there" I'd have to be maybe a bit less certain, as long as it isn't logically contradictory, but still pretty sure there's no such thing.
So we're agreed, and you're not making suicide-baiting allusions at me. That's refreshing.

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2018, 03:29:08 PM »
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We agree that there are unknowns, and that God could be one of them. You and the shrine maiden have admitted this. You don't get to just reframe my argument endlessly and pretend I wasn't right.
You are right only in the most uninteresting, vacuous way possible. Yes, there is no way to be absolutely 100% certain of anything we assert to know, but this is a long way from saying that we "know nothing" as your nihilist position asserts. Any idiot can come along and say that we don't absolutely know everything or even absolutely know anything; the real trick is to make that case convincingly, and that is the one thing you've failed to do. Our definition of knowledge does not require certainty to work. Our scientific knowledge does give us practical benefits, "the goods." No amount of navel-gazing philosophy can dismiss that. Only by asserting a position approaching solipsism, that the world we see is a complete and utter fabrication, can negate any of that.

How about we do a practical experiment. How much do you want to bet that, say, humans are not made of atoms? Would you wager your life on that? I would wager mine on the opposite, that humans are made of atoms.
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Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2018, 03:34:41 PM »
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You are right only in the most uninteresting, vacuous way possible. Yes, there is no way to be absolutely 100% certain of anything we assert to know, but this is a long way from saying that we "know nothing" as your nihilist position asserts.
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Epistemological nihilism is something different. That is why I specified, in my first post, which I was led to believe you read.

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How about we do a practical experiment. How much do you want to bet that, say, humans are not made of atoms? Would you wager your life on that? I would wager mine on the opposite, that humans are made of atoms.
Prove that humans exist first.

Offline SGOS

Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2018, 03:42:00 PM »
One advantage to atheism for me was that it eliminated from my thought processes a dumpster full of mutually exclusive ideas, illogical apologies, and inconsistencies that a god directed reality required, and I would venture this is the same for most atheists.  Think about all the useless irrelevant crap you tried to make sense out of in a world of a mystery god.  Those from atheist families might experience this with less difficulty than a person who was brainwashed by his parents to believe in the nonsense.  Eventually, it's overwhelming to live with so much chaos in your brain, and simply not trying to believe lets you deal with the more relevant aspects of reality.  A burden is lifted.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 06:02:14 PM by SGOS »

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2018, 03:43:42 PM »
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Epistemological nihilism is something different. That is why I specified, in my first post, which I was led to believe you read.

Ahem! From your first post:
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4. Nihilist. Specifically, meta-ethical emotivist, existential nihilist, epistemological solipsist.

You have been consistently characterizing us as not having knowledge because we don't have 100% assurance of it, of hanging your hat on the fact that science can't prove anything to 100% and pretending as if that's a big fat hairy deal. I don't care what you call it. It's still wrong by any conventional sense.

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Prove that humans exist first.
Don't be obtuse. Are you Homo sapiens? Then humans exist.
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Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2018, 03:49:16 PM »
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One advantage to atheism for me was that it eliminated from my thought processes a dumpster full of mutually exclusive ideas, illogical apologies, and inconsistencies that a god directed reality required, and I would venture this is the same for most atheists.  Think about all the useless irrelevant crap you tried to make sense out of in a world of a mystery god.  Those from atheist families might experience this with less difficulty than a person who was brainwashed by his parents to believe in the nonsense.  Eventually, it's overwhelming to live with so much chaos in your brain, and simply not trying to believe lets to deal with the more relevant aspects of reality.  A burden is lifted.
That's actually a fairly interesting hypothesis.

Though... I was raised by a pretty religious family in the, uh, deep south. I just don't really care about "making sense" of whatever a god may or may not will, whether it exists or not.

Taking it from the Christian view, man was created in God's image, right? So, that means... God is basically just another man, but with more magic sky mojo.

Unless you think might makes right, it doesn't really follow that there's any reason to listen to such a god... Or unless you actually believe it when it says it's omnibenevolent, but then men are liars and it claims... yeah.

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Ahem!
Hai. Sono toori.

Emotivism is a meta-ethical nihilist position; existential nihilism is, of course, a nihilist position. Epistemological solipsism is actually weaker than the nihilist position on epistemology.

Epistemological nihilist: "We know nothing."

Epistemological solipsist: "Cogito ergo sum... and other than that I'm not sure."

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I don't care what you call it. It's still wrong by any conventional sense.
It's not wrong. That's the problem. It's right, you know it's right, it's actually fairly obviously right, and you make the step of assuming that our best guesses are probably pretty good but don't like to be reminded that that is a step you are taking. It's not proven. It's your best guess.

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Are you Homo sapiens?
No idea.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 03:51:13 PM by omokuroi »

Offline SGOS

Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2018, 04:03:21 PM »
To continue my last post: (Sorry, I had to tend to an emergency on the kitchen stove).  The above post talks about why I don't worry over absolute knowledge that might cancel out reality as I see it.  I simply reduce the clutter of inconsistency and outright logical incompatibilities, and draw what Gnosticism I can from what doesn't absolutely conflict with reality.  I don't need to know with certainty everything there is to know, I just sort through the stuff that makes sense.  God is not in the set of things that make sense.  I don't claim absolute knowledge, but I do place bets on things that seem most likely, and most of the time it pays.

Offline trdsf

Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2018, 04:12:17 PM »
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strawman strawman assertion assertion "actually you're right but the fact you're right doesn't matter because i said so" strawman strawman HOLY PROJECTION BATMAN
Yeah, it's really easy to declare victory when you're going to deliberately ignore and/or misrepresent the arguments against your position.

Projection? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Whatever.  Have fun wanking yourself.  Hope you grow up soon.
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2018, 04:16:08 PM »
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Yeah, it's really easy to declare victory when you're going to deliberately ignore and/or misrepresent the arguments against your position.

Projection? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Whatever.  Have fun wanking yourself.  Hope you grow up soon.
Fuck off.

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2018, 04:42:32 PM »
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Emotivism is a meta-ethical nihilist position; existential nihilism is, of course, a nihilist position. Epistemological solipsism is actually weaker than the nihilist position on epistemology.

Epistemological nihilist: "We know nothing."

Epistemological solipsist: "Cogito ergo sum... and other than that I'm not sure."
Vacuous and uninteresting. Indeed, by the standards of Hinduist philosophy, even "cogito ergo sum" is a dubious position — how do you know you yourself are not a dreamed-up simulacrum of another entity? Is that other entity real rather than a dreamed-up simulacrum itself?

Nah, these endless rabbit holes may amuse some people, but I bore of that game rather quickly.

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It's not wrong. That's the problem. It's right, you know it's right, it's actually fairly obviously right, and you make the step of assuming that our best guesses are probably pretty good but don't like to be reminded that that is a step you are taking. It's not proven. It's your best guess.
I said, "wrong by any conventional sense." In any way we would normally use the word "know," scientifically use the word "know," or even the way philosophy defines "know," we do in fact know things to the satisfaction of that definition. Am I sure of the conclusions of science? Yes, by any conventional sense. If I take the conclusions of science as true (not the frontier science of the journals, but the well established science of the textbooks), then there will be no serious challenge to that knowledge, at least without a fair amount of warning. It's beyond a "best guess." It's achieved a status that is close enough to absolute proof to be perfectly serviceable as such for any practical purpose.

You crow victory over that last itty-bitty sliver of uncertainty that is impossible to dispel, but I really don't see the point of that. It's not going to change my life to live with the small error between that and "true proof." Then again, I've studied calculus. It just seems to me that you are howling victory over a stale crumb.

So, yeah, to the extent that your assertions are true, they are vacuous and uninteresting. To an extent that they would be interesting and applicable to the real world, they are not true.

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No idea.
Stop being evasive. Get yourself a taxonomy book and get started.
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Offline Baruch

Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2018, 06:09:01 PM »
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Epistemological nihilism is something different. That is why I specified, in my first post, which I was led to believe you read.

Prove that humans exist first.

The problem isn't do humans exist, some do beings exist, but are they really human?  That is the appropriate question.  There is a lot of contrary evidence.  You can dress up a monkey, but the suit doesn't make the man.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 06:20:08 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Baruch

Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2018, 06:14:43 PM »
Geeks are all Brights, the rest are Dims.  The terminology, human or homo sapiens, was obsolete once Seri went on-line.  Instead of "my anatomical entity is bigger than yours" it is "my electronic gadget is newer than yours".  The ape men screech and and take up a threatening posture ;-)

Jazzed up monkeys on dope.  Or doped up monkeys on jazz?

Gandhi - "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."  You are on the next to the last step ;-))

If you weren't making an impact, the howlers would have continued to ignore you.  I give you an electronic banana.

I am here as an Internet anthropologist, studying one particular ecosystem.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 06:19:14 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Baruch

Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2018, 06:59:08 PM »
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Fuck off.

You would tell Nan Ch'uan holding the cat ... to make your day ;-(
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Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2018, 01:22:25 AM »
This guy sounds like an apologist who's trying too hard. And no, I don't think you're obnoxious because I disagree with you, and definitely not because your arguments are without flaws. Hakurei has been doing a very good job picking your arguments apart and making you look like a fool. I just find your attitude annoying. You're so smug and you act like you know way more than you obviously do.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Offline Cavebear

Re: Oh dear.
« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2018, 06:05:05 AM »
I always feel free to ignore idiots.  It is the crazed true believers that cause me grief.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

 

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