Why I Hate America

[Baruch]

Thanks.

I don't want to be liked (or disliked), I just want to be heard. This is at least a little reassurance to that end.

You are very popular already, and becoming more so.  Proof you are doing something very wrong ;-)

I have a lot in common with the title character in Jude The Obscure, by Thomas Hardy.

[Unbeliever]

You're a stonemason?

[Shiranu]

Just popping in to say I don't think Omokuroi sounds like Baruch.

No sarcasm; Baruch, I like you buddy. But Omokuroi has yet to say something I don't understand.

As long as I'm here might as well pass on my two cents, @Shiranu . I agree that it's not essentialy unpatriotic to dislike the current state of affairs your country is in. To long for change for your homeland. Indeed, it can be as patriotic as one can get. I love my country. But there are definitely things I wish would improve or be altered in some way.  To desire to have your country be the greatest it can be is fine. It's something good to feel. But indeed, we should look at the world as a whole. And in such a thing, we shouldn't look at countries as anything more than countries. Countries aren't to be leaders or rivals. Nor innovators or regulators. And our desire should be to have this prosperity and acceptance and propper education and affordable and effective healthcare, ... on a great and preferrably equal level for all of mankind. Despite it being something natural and inherent to our human nature, we shouldn't desire our in-group to be the best in the world. The best it can be, sure. But the best in the world indeed does inherently imply a ranking. The way the world works, 'the best it can be' will still involve ranking but not by definition because potentially every country's best could be on a potential same footing, especially if we were to look over such strange boundaries as countries.

I hate to say it, but I am not sure I believe that there is such a thing as global unity anymore, or that it is inherently the best system; I'm not even sure countries aren't too big to maximize potential. For example, the West/East of the United States suffer because they are held hostage by the Midwest/South, Cataluna suffers because it is held hostage by Madrid (even if it is the most prosperous region in Spain, it is held back by Madrid's regressive views), Progressive Scotland by Conservative London, secular Istanbul/Izmir by theocratic Ankara, Southern Italy by the North's racist policies, etc. etc. .

Perhaps the best option is to stick to one's own "tribe" (Southern, Catalunian, Scottish, etc.) and not let yourself be governed by foreign groups. Certainly work with any group who shares your ideals and band together for protection, but trying to force modernity or submitting to other "tribes" (for lack of a better word) seems to almost always backfire and instead ends up with the regressive party ultimately being the one in charge... be it New England/the West Coast or Kemal Turkey trying to bring progressive thought to the South or rural Turkey and instead having the national government taken over be theocrats and neo-cons, or places like Cataluna and Scotland being forced to suffer backwards ideology under the religious rule of Madrid and the moronic rule of London.


It's like corporations... they start off well, and I think many small corporations are great. But once they reach a certain size, all bets are off and they almost all turn into complete horror shows.

[Baruch]

You're a stonemason?

If directed to me ... a grandson of a Shriner.  But I won't show you the secret clown handshake ;-)

[Gilgamesh]

I hate our systematic racism.

Specifically what?

I hate the mentally handicapped are legally allowed to be paid cents-per-hour to work for multi-billion dollar companies.

Would you rather them not have employment opportunities at all? That's the alternative. These companies effectively create positions specifically for the mentally handi-capped to fill - positions that aren't even warranted an existence for what they entail. They aren't necessarily positions, that is. They exist for no other reason than to give the mentally handi-capped a sense of purpose and a few extra dollars in their pockets. These companies don't want to pay them min-wage salaries because then people who are doing the actual work for the same salaries would be fucking pissed, and also because these positions don't generate any money - and therefore aren't warranted any pay; they're basically charity.

I hate that we spend nearly 25 cents of every dollar towards our military when we already spend more than the next 10 or so countries combined.

America also has a global presence bigger than any other military on earth. This costs money. And if this is really your position, please don't tell me you're also of the disposition that "we need to be doing something about ____'s third-world living conditions, man!" because the entity you want to diminish in order to save tax dollars (perhaps for social services for your own countrymen) is literally the entity that helps do that.

I hate that we have a president who defended Neo-Nazis who murdered a woman in Charlottesvile.

You don't.

[Mr.Obvious]

I hate to say it, but I am not sure I believe that there is such a thing as global unity anymore, or that it is inherently the best system; I'm not even sure countries aren't too big to maximize potential. For example, the West/East of the United States suffer because they are held hostage by the Midwest/South, Cataluna suffers because it is held hostage by Madrid (even if it is the most prosperous region in Spain, it is held back by Madrid's regressive views), Progressive Scotland by Conservative London, secular Istanbul/Izmir by theocratic Ankara, Southern Italy by the North's racist policies, etc. etc. .

Perhaps the best option is to stick to one's own "tribe" (Southern, Catalunian, Scottish, etc.) and not let yourself be governed by foreign groups. Certainly work with any group who shares your ideals and band together for protection, but trying to force modernity or submitting to other "tribes" (for lack of a better word) seems to almost always backfire and instead ends up with the regressive party ultimately being the one in charge... be it New England/the West Coast or Kemal Turkey trying to bring progressive thought to the South or rural Turkey and instead having the national government taken over be theocrats and neo-cons, or places like Cataluna and Scotland being forced to suffer backwards ideology under the religious rule of Madrid and the moronic rule of London.


It's like corporations... they start off well, and I think many small corporations are great. But once they reach a certain size, all bets are off and they almost all turn into complete horror shows.

Well I'm not talking about submission or the likes. I do still hold an affinity for the idea of global unity (not global conformity, though). Though I don't think it'll ever be achieved. Kind of like the idea of global peace. But seeing as that's not the crux of your thread nor is it something I particularly feel adept to defend or feel called to defend, I suggest not to derail your thread further.

I will say though I never thought I'd see the day you of all people would defend tribalism in some shape or form.
You may not be wrong in that aspect though. As a certain amount of practicallity and realism could be more beneficial than pure idealism. In essence, unwillingness to compromise between what one wants the world to be and what one can actually make it, could be holding us back.

[Baruch]

Greed, avarice and willingness to win at all costs ... is what holds us back.  The very qualities of capitalism.  But that is what motivates the ape men.

[Hydra009]

...Evidence?
I didn't specify the causal relationship, I only pointed out a correlation. The evidence of said correlation is plain: the moment I point out that people who selectively enforce laws against racial minorities are usually racist, you start posting in multiple threads about how irrational I am.

Let me make this crystal clear for you since you can't seem to piece it together yourself.  I make fun of irrationality.  That's how I cope with the craziness in the world.  When you come here and post a bunch of super irrational stuff,  (like defending Trump under the rubric the crime doesn't exist, bizarrely enough) I'm going to criticize it and probably make fun of you for it.  There is a way to avoid this, but not many people figure it out.  Will you?

[omokuroi]

Defending Trump?

I voted Obama twice, Sanders in the primary, and reluctantly voted Clinton just to keep Toupee Marionette's angrily ejected sputum off the presidential desk.

But that's just my personal preference. If you happen to really like white people it's only logical that you'd support Trump. Calling that morally wrong only works if you pretend your subjective feelings constitute objective moral facts.

(They don't.)

[Baruch]

i voted for Obama twice (the first time on hope, the second on rejection of Romney).  I voted for Gary Johnson (on rejection of both Hillary and Donald).  But if you don't drink the DNC kook-aide and hail from Little Rock, then you are an Orc to many people here.  There are messianic strains in political discourse.  For some Bill Clinton, George W Bush, Barak Obama or Donald Trump are messiahs.

But all messiahs are false, people project their hopes and fears all over the candidates.  And the candidates know this and exploit it.  For some others, Hillary is a messiah ... and that is just as kooky.  Most of these people aren't even statesmen, not even competent politicians.  The standards of the mob, are very low.  Hence the upcoming candidacy of Oprah.  Saints be praised!

[omokuroi]

But all messiahs are false, people project their hopes and fears all over the candidates.  And the candidates know this and exploit it.  For some others, Hillary is a messiah ... and that is just as kooky.  Most of these people aren't even statesmen, not even competent politicians.  The standards of the mob, are very low.  Hence the upcoming candidacy of Oprah.  Saints be praised!

Oprah is several steps above Trump just because Oprah isn't as actively malicious to certain groups of people who I happen to care about, though.

Also, I would like the Libertarians more if half of people who identify with it weren't just Republicans who were in a social group where calling yourself Republican isn't cool. You can't be a classical liberal and also think we need millions of armed guards firing at will along the border...

[Cavebear]

Because I have been accused of this in multiple threads, I will compile my response in one thread to save space.

But here is the point... I hate that America is not great, and is taking steps backwards from being great. I hate that America is not living up to a fraction of it's potential.

I agree.  Trump and his followers are nuts.  He and they are against democracy.  He and they are against news media.  He and they are against the judicial system.

He and they are against "others".

He and they are against science.

He and they are against rational thought.

He and they are against anything that is not "THEY".

[Shiranu]

Specifically what?

1. Despite the fact that African Americans make up 13% of the population and an estimated 15% of American drug users, 37% of all drug arrests are against African Americans.

2. Blacks and Latinos in NYC were facing an 85% rate of stop and frisk, while white people were stopped and frisked 8%.

3. Human Rights Watch estimates that African Americans, depending on where they are, are two to eleven times more likely to be arrested for drug possession than whites.

4. The U.S. Sentencing Commission found that African Americans receive on average 10% longer sentences for whites than the same crimes and 21% more like to receive a mandatory minimum sentence.

5. On average 17% of white criminals receive a call back on job applications after release from jail; for African Americans, only 5%.

6. Black students are three times more likely than white students to be expelled from school, even when the infractions are the same. Additionally they are 16% of the total enrollment but 27% of the students referenced to law enforcement.

7. Once black students become referenced to law enforcement, they are 18 times more likely than white children to be sentenced as adults.

8. An entire research paper worth of information can be found on the consequences of practical segregation of African Americans and white communities and how it effects their access to better standards of living, education, healthcare, etc. etc.

America also has a global presence bigger than any other military on earth. This costs money. And if this is really your position, please don't tell me you're also of the disposition that "we need to be doing something about ____'s third-world living conditions, man!" because the entity you want to diminish in order to save tax dollars (perhaps for social services for your own countrymen) is literally the entity that helps do that.

1. How much of our military is in the third world helping, and how much of it is at home or in friendly, first world countries?
2. How much of that budget goes to helping third world countries, and how much goes to technology that becomes quickly outdated or doesn't even work, but we continue to award huge contracts to these people anyways (this is nothing new either, my grandfather was complaining about it all the way in Korea)?

You don't.

If by, "you don't", you mean, "We have a president who said the Nazis were full of good people and both sides were to blame" (Literally victim blaming a woman who was killed for being part of a counter protest to Nazis), then you are right, "we don't".

That's a weird way of saying that, but maybe something is lost in translation.

[Unbeliever]

Hence the upcoming candidacy of Oprah.  Saints be praised!

I hope her running-mate will be Whoopi Goldberg.

[Baruch]

I hope her running-mate will be Whoopi Goldberg.

Bernie couldn't be the first Jew in the WH, so maybe Whoopi will make it ;-)