Why I Hate America

[omokuroi]

Except I have said exactly what needs to be said; I want us to work that fraction harder to be better. That doesn't mean we are bringing anyone anyone else down, just lifting ourselves higher.

That doesn't require a paragraph to explain.

Haa...

It kind of does.

http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Sherif/chap7.htm?wptouch_preview_theme=enabled

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797610397667

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/328/5984/1408

http://research.gold.ac.uk/21654/

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cdr/2016/8649132/

I can keep searching for more, but the more I search for, the worse I'm going to find.

In general, it's been found that people--that humans--would rather harm an outgroup than lose, and if they lose are even more eager to harm outgroups in the future.

Some studies have checked whether this would be balanced against general welfare, and found... quite worryingly, that humans would rather harm everyone, collectively, including themselves, if it meant their group would end up in first place.

If there are any experiments which have found otherwise, I've never seen them. The only studies which don't show hostility toward outgroups are studies which deliberately reduce the sense of competition.

[omokuroi]

I misread.  I thought you initially allowed that it's not a zero-sum game (which would be true) and then labored under zero-sum logic for the latter part of the sentence.  Apparently, it was bad logic all the way through.  Apologies.

I think the problem here is that omokuroi is conflating rankings with capability.  The first is zero-sum (no two countries can occupy the #1 spot) while the second one isn't (if American life expectancy improves, it doesn't lower Japanese life expectancy).

No. In fact, I've yet to commit a single logical error. On the other hand, you are incredibly vengeful ever since I pointed out that someone acting like a racist was, you know, acting like a racist.

[Shiranu]

Haa...

It kind of does.

http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Sherif/chap7.htm?wptouch_preview_theme=enabled

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797610397667

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/328/5984/1408

http://research.gold.ac.uk/21654/

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cdr/2016/8649132/

I can keep searching for more, but the more I search for, the worse I'm going to find.

In general, it's been found that people--that humans--would rather harm an outgroup than lose, and if they lose are even more eager to harm outgroups in the future.

Some studies have checked whether this would be balanced against general welfare, and found... quite worryingly, that humans would rather harm everyone, collectively, including themselves, if it meant their group would end up in first place.

If there are any experiments which have found otherwise, I've never seen them. The only studies which don't show hostility toward outgroups are studies which deliberately reduce the sense of competition.

K.

I'm not particularly interested in writing a short essay on why you are completely missing what I am saying, since you seem to be the only person who doesn't get what I'm saying, so you win this argument. Congrats.

[Shiranu]

No. In fact, I've yet to commit a single logical error. On the other hand, you are incredibly vengeful ever since I pointed out that someone acting like a racist was, you know, acting like a racist.

Wait, now I am a racist?

That went zero to a hundred, real quick.

[omokuroi]

K.

I'm not particularly interested in writing a short essay on why you are completely missing what I am saying, since you seem to be the only person who doesn't get what I'm saying, so you win this argument. Congrats.

What you're saying is "I want to do what other humans do, but also I am somehow going to be absolutely 100% free of the darker biases found pretty much universally among humans."

The problem here is that I don't believe you.

Wait, now I am a racist?

That went zero to a hundred, real quick.

No, different post, new user was going on about "law and order" with respect to the Evergreen State protests.

[Shiranu]

No, different post, new user was going on about "law and order" with respect to the Evergreen State protests.

Ohhh okay, haven't been in that thread in awhile.

[Hydra009]

No. In fact, I've yet to commit a single logical error.

Correction.  Logical error and perceptual error.

On the other hand, you are incredibly vengeful ever since I pointed out that someone acting like a racist was, you know, acting like a racist.

Make that two perceptual errors.

[Baruch]

I mean that even if it is a zero-sum game, I'd rather everyone sit at zero than one person sit at 100 while twenty others sit at -5.

Old Russian parable.  G-d came down and visited Sergei, a farmer.  He told Sergei the good news ... I will give you anything you want, provided I also give the same thing to your neighbor Vladimir.  Sergei told G-d ... Ok, rip out one of my eyes!

[Baruch]

I just heard Bernie Sanders say that the 3 richest people in America own more wealth than the bottom half of America. That's a good reason to hate America, I guess.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbBCyZxDAbY

But Americans want it this way.  We don't want to be free of oppression, we just want to join the bourgeoisie oppressing class.

[Baruch]

Sounds a bit like Baruch, huh?

But I know that you know that I know ... you are encoding what you say.

[Baruch]

I think the problem here is that omokuroi is conflating rankings with capability.  The first is zero-sum (no two countries can occupy the #1 spot) while the second one isn't (if American life expectancy improves, it doesn't lower Japanese life expectancy).

In nations and individuals weren't predatory, then you would be correct.  But nations and people are predatory ... either directly we reduce the Japanese life expectancy, or we lower it indirectly (this is usually the preferred option, it is too obvious if we drop nukes).  In reality, even Gandhi was a predatory mother fucker (as passive-aggressive type).  To save Britain in WW II, Britain deliberately removed food stocks from part of India, leading to famine there, and many deaths.  Then again, bad weather can happen anytime.  How much was weather, and how much was Churchill being callous is hard to tell.  Certainly Churchill valued English lives over Indian ones.  America is just like that, being the senior partner of the Anglo-American Empire since 1945.

[Mr.Obvious]

Sounds a bit like Baruch, huh?

Just popping in to say I don't think Omokuroi sounds like Baruch.

No sarcasm; Baruch, I like you buddy. But Omokuroi has yet to say something I don't understand.

As long as I'm here might as well pass on my two cents, @Shiranu . I agree that it's not essentialy unpatriotic to dislike the current state of affairs your country is in. To long for change for your homeland. Indeed, it can be as patriotic as one can get. I love my country. But there are definitely things I wish would improve or be altered in some way.  To desire to have your country be the greatest it can be is fine. It's something good to feel. But indeed, we should look at the world as a whole. And in such a thing, we shouldn't look at countries as anything more than countries. Countries aren't to be leaders or rivals. Nor innovators or regulators. And our desire should be to have this prosperity and acceptance and propper education and affordable and effective healthcare, ... on a great and preferrably equal level for all of mankind. Despite it being something natural and inherent to our human nature, we shouldn't desire our in-group to be the best in the world. The best it can be, sure. But the best in the world indeed does inherently imply a ranking. The way the world works, 'the best it can be' will still involve ranking but not by definition because potentially every country's best could be on a potential same footing, especially if we were to look over such strange boundaries as countries.

[Baruch]

For some people, if you don't sound like an undergraduate at that college in Oregon, then you are racist or Nazi.  I don't think Omokuroi or I are either of those.  But then I am proudly Kekistani ;-)

[omokuroi]

Correction.  Logical error and perceptual error.

And you've eaten three kittens today.

...Evidence?

Make that two perceptual errors.

I didn't specify the causal relationship, I only pointed out a correlation. The evidence of said correlation is plain: the moment I point out that people who selectively enforce laws against racial minorities are usually racist, you start posting in multiple threads about how irrational I am.

[omokuroi]

But Omokuroi has yet to say something I don't understand.

Thanks.

I don't want to be liked (or disliked), I just want to be heard. This is at least a little reassurance to that end.

I don't think Omokuroi or I are either of those.  But then I am proudly Kekistani ;-)

I don't align with any groups. It's my experience that once you start holding some tenets as imperative, you quickly start sacrificing logic at their altar.