On Miracles

[aitm]

Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?

gee, I don't know...maybe because the babble says so. Ya know....that silly little verse that you all compi-believers claim is absolute unless you expect it to mean what it says? You know...that silly lil verse that says...If you pray...believing..you can tell that mountain to move and it will and nothing will be impossible for you?  Ya that one...go ahead...start with the excuses in 3..2..1..

[Hydra009]

Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?

You mean like lepers calling out to be magically healed?  No idea...

[cabinetmaker]

gee, I don't know...maybe because the babble says so. Ya know....that silly little verse that you all compi-believers claim is absolute unless you expect it to mean what it says? You know...that silly lil verse that says...If you pray...believing..you can tell that mountain to move and it will and nothing will be impossible for you?  Ya that one...go ahead...start with the excuses in 3..2..1..

Ah yes, faith the size of a mustard seed.  But that doesn't answer the question I actually asked.  Why do you think that verse discussing the frailty of human faith makes God subject to granting any and all wishes we may put to Him?

[Hakurei Reimu]

Because without the assurance that God will answer these prayers like a genie, it becomes the Jug of Milk illusion. This is where praying to God has exactly the same outward effect as praying to a jug of milk.

[Baruch]

This one doesn't have to be refrigerated ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSaS17CSS4c

[Hakurei Reimu]

Come now! Spoiled milk solves theodicy!

[Baruch]

Come now! Spoiled milk solves theodicy!

But "being behind the 8 ball" gives me precious victim status ;-)

[cabinetmaker]

Because without the assurance that God will answer these prayers like a genie, it becomes the Jug of Milk illusion. This is where praying to God has exactly the same outward effect as praying to a jug of milk.

Why should God grant your team victory in the supper bowl and ignore the prayers of those routing for the other team?  Why should give you a new car and ignore those who need new shoes?  Why should God grant you the love of your life and ignore the prayers of the family whose mother just ran away?

Maybe the problem here is that people are not praying for the right things.  We pray out of our selfishness, not out of love for others.

[Mike Cl]

Maybe the problem here is that people are not praying for the right things.  We pray out of our selfishness, not out of love for others.

Maybe the REAL problem is that some are praying to the wrong god??!

[trdsf]

Maybe the problem here is that people are not praying for the right things.  We pray out of our selfishness, not out of love for others.

Maybe the real problem is that people are praying rather than doing.

Next time there's a hurricane in Florida, don't pray for the victims, send a couple bucks to the Red Cross or other relief organizations.  Got a friend or family member who's in a bad way and you're too far to help physically and/or too broke to help financially?  Be an ear for them to vent to and/or a shoulder to cry on.  As far as I'm concerned, "I'll pray for you" is nothing more than a socially acceptable way to say "I can't (or won't) actually help, sucks to be you."

I did notice that the tone of my prayers changed radically when I left Christianity for Wicca.  I stopped praying for things to happen or not happen; instead I prayed for understanding as to why things happened the way they did.

Eventually I noticed I still had to figure things out for myself.  Unless someone cares to suggest that my Neopagan gods did a better job of answering their voicemail than the Christian god did...

[Baruch]

Maybe the real problem is that people are praying rather than doing.

Next time there's a hurricane in Florida, don't pray for the victims, send a couple bucks to the Red Cross or other relief organizations.  Got a friend or family member who's in a bad way and you're too far to help physically and/or too broke to help financially?  Be an ear for them to vent to and/or a shoulder to cry on.  As far as I'm concerned, "I'll pray for you" is nothing more than a socially acceptable way to say "I can't (or won't) actually help, sucks to be you."

I did notice that the tone of my prayers changed radically when I left Christianity for Wicca.  I stopped praying for things to happen or not happen; instead I prayed for understanding as to why things happened the way they did.

Eventually I noticed I still had to figure things out for myself.  Unless someone cares to suggest that my Neopagan gods did a better job of answering their voicemail than the Christian god did...

Epistle of James ... those who have faith and don't act .. are hypocrits.  The magic of prayer isn't about G-d, it is about you getting past the neuroses that are preventing you from acting.

[Hakurei Reimu]

Why should God grant your team victory in the supper bowl and ignore the prayers of those routing for the other team?

We're not talking about these obviously mutually exclusive choices. God ignores the prayers of people to heal amputees and cure them of diseases.

Why should give you a new car and ignore those who need new shoes?

An omnipotent being should be able to grant both. I don't see the problem. The only thing that you posing this question does is diminish the power of your god.

Also, he doesn't do either.

Why should God grant you the love of your life and ignore the prayers of the family whose mother just ran away?

Again, a God that has to make these kinds of choices is one limited in resources. Not only limited in resources in an absolute sense, but limited in resources on any human level. We're able to find these mothers, and we've done it on occasion. God should be able to do at least as well.

But he doesn't do either.

Maybe the problem here is that people are not praying for the right things.  We pray out of our selfishness, not out of love for others.

He doesn't do either.

Again, the Jug of Milk illusion. "We have to trust that the Jug of Milk knows best." trdsf is right: prayer is a socially-acceptable excuse to not help someone.

[aitm]

Why do you think that verse discussing the frailty of human faith makes God subject to granting any and all wishes we may put to Him?

just the annoying part where it states, "and nothing will be impossible for you" ..you know.....not hard to grasp. But pretty easy to make excuses for, and pretty common excuses they are.

[Unbeliever]

[cabinetmaker]

Maybe the real problem is that people are praying rather than doing.

Next time there's a hurricane in Florida, don't pray for the victims, send a couple bucks to the Red Cross or other relief organizations.  Got a friend or family member who's in a bad way and you're too far to help physically and/or too broke to help financially?  Be an ear for them to vent to and/or a shoulder to cry on.  As far as I'm concerned, "I'll pray for you" is nothing more than a socially acceptable way to say "I can't (or won't) actually help, sucks to be you."

I did notice that the tone of my prayers changed radically when I left Christianity for Wicca.  I stopped praying for things to happen or not happen; instead I prayed for understanding as to why things happened the way they did.

Eventually I noticed I still had to figure things out for myself.  Unless someone cares to suggest that my Neopagan gods did a better job of answering their voicemail than the Christian god did...

There is an interesting passage in Mathew dealing with sorting the sheep and the goats.  Prayer is important.  Doing is what love really is.