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On Miracles

Started by trdsf, January 09, 2018, 11:38:24 AM

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aitm

Quote from: trdsf on January 16, 2018, 12:59:25 PM
Write it.  Even if it's just for your own amusement.  Otherwise it'll eat your brain.

In my own writing, I'm going to have a lot of fun with the plot point that meeting humans ultimately provided actual physical evidence in favor of the aliens' creation myth... you can imagine how well that goes down among believer humans, of course.  Heh.  Heh.  Heh.

My freshman year in college I wrote a very lengthy story about a guy on LSD who found himself talking to a bird. Short version, after hours of discussion on the nature of god and gods and human frailties the bird convinces the man that while birds are constricted by evolutionary design,and are rather forced to fly to survive, humans with their large brains have over time been able to conquer gravity itself by sheer will. Thus the bird convinces the man that he can fly and promptly upon falling to his death from his dorm balcony, the bird laughs, shakes it's head..."fucking humans and their fucking ego's!"
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Baruch

I talk to birds all the time, but in bird-talk, not human-talk.  I think you are implying the hallucinator was hearing a bird speak to him in human-talk.  Just clarifying.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

aitm

Quote from: Baruch on January 28, 2018, 10:01:42 AM
I talk to birds all the time, but in bird-talk, not human-talk.

I have no doubt.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: Baruch on January 28, 2018, 10:01:42 AM
I talk to birds all the time, but in bird-talk, not human-talk.
Is that what it sounds like?
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

trdsf

Quote from: aitm on January 28, 2018, 09:14:52 AM
My freshman year in college I wrote a very lengthy story about a guy on LSD who found himself talking to a bird. Short version, after hours of discussion on the nature of god and gods and human frailties the bird convinces the man that while birds are constricted by evolutionary design,and are rather forced to fly to survive, humans with their large brains have over time been able to conquer gravity itself by sheer will. Thus the bird convinces the man that he can fly and promptly upon falling to his death from his dorm balcony, the bird laughs, shakes it's head..."fucking humans and their fucking ego's!"
I would read that story in Asimov's or an anthology.  :)
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

cabinetmaker

Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
Hunter S. Thompson

Blackleaf

Quote from: cabinetmaker on January 29, 2018, 10:52:23 AM
Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?

I never considered God to be a genie. When I believed in him, I only considered him as a father, as the Bible describes him. But if he's a father, he's an absent father. He doesn't respond to prayers, he doesn't do anything to help (that can't easily be confused for pure coincidence), he considers all humans to be fundamentally flawed to the point of being disgusting, and he expects us to earn his love by kissing his ass and telling him how great his is. Even an absent father leaves you with half of his DNA. For God, there's no sign that he was ever there to begin with.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Mike Cl

Quote from: cabinetmaker on January 29, 2018, 10:52:23 AM
Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?
I've wondered that myself.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: cabinetmaker on January 29, 2018, 10:52:23 AM
Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?

In some cultures that is called a wishing tree.

If we could be as old as Methusalah we might be lest childish.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

Quote from: cabinetmaker on January 29, 2018, 10:52:23 AM
Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?
It's just that people insist on wishful thinking to get their view of reality.
Quote from: Harry Emerson Fosdick

God is not a cosmic bell-boy for whom we can press a button to get things.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

trdsf

Quote from: cabinetmaker on January 29, 2018, 10:52:23 AM
Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?
You may as well if you're already engaged in magical thinking.  Once you've made the leap to believing things on no evidence, there's no limit to what else you can believe on that same basis.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

cabinetmaker

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 29, 2018, 10:57:58 AM
I never considered God to be a genie. When I believed in him, I only considered him as a father, as the Bible describes him. But if he's a father, he's an absent father. He doesn't respond to prayers, he doesn't do anything to help (that can't easily be confused for pure coincidence), he considers all humans to be fundamentally flawed to the point of being disgusting, and he expects us to earn his love by kissing his ass and telling him how great his is. Even an absent father leaves you with half of his DNA. For God, there's no sign that he was ever there to begin with.
Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.  We don't do that and suffer a hard life because of that and we blame God for our hard life and the hard lives of others.  God is our Father, but He is also God and as such, He is not subject to us.
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
Hunter S. Thompson

Blackleaf

Quote from: cabinetmaker on January 29, 2018, 02:36:28 PM
Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.  We don't do that and suffer a hard life because of that and we blame God for our hard life and the hard lives of others.  God is our Father, but He is also God and as such, He is not subject to us.

In other words, "Do as I say, not as I do." In any case, it cannot be claimed that God is a loving father when he, having all the power and foreknowledge necessary to act, watches his children suffer pointlessly. And no, free will is not an argument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BzP1wr234
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Unbeliever

#103
Quote from: cabinetmaker on January 29, 2018, 02:36:28 PM
Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.
Yes, but when asked who our neighbors are he proceeded to tell a story about a guy who helped another guy when no one else would. So our neighbors are those who help us when no on else will.

And Jesus commanded lots of things that Christians simply ignore - Such as Luke 14:26:

QuoteIf any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

He also commanded that we call no one "father" except for God. No one obeys this commandment.

I could go on, but my point is that whatever Jesus commanded is irrelevant to any discussion we might have concerning either Jesus' or God's existence.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

cabinetmaker

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 29, 2018, 02:51:13 PM
Yes, but when asked who our neighbors are he proceeded to tell a story about a guy who helped another guy when no one else would. So our neighbors are those who help us when no on else will.
And a great many people fail as you have in their attempts to understand what Jesus was saying.  They treat it so literally that they miss that Jesus was saying that EVERYBODY is your neighbor.

QuoteAnd Jesus commanded lots of things that Christians simply ignore - Such as Luke 14:26:
Jesus had 12 disciples and this is what He expected of them.  Of course, this statement is also hyperbole because Jesus's whole gospel is about loving and caring.  You still love your family, you just love Jesus more to be a disciple.  Choices.

QuoteHe also commanded that we call no one "father" except for God. No one obeys this commandment.
Some worse than others.

QuoteI could go on, but my point is that whatever Jesus commanded is irrelevant to any discussion we might have concerning either Jesus' or God's existence.
You can go on and on and on but that doesn't really prove anything more than that men can really screw up the most simple of things.  Jesus said love God with everything you are and love each other as you love yourself.  It really is that simple.  A bit more difficult to practice.  But men don't like that simplicity so men create religion.  As set of rules that they must follow or else.  And religion A's rules are "better" (pronounced "different") than religion B's so naturally, in the name of God, Religion B must destroy Religion B.  And vice a versa.  It has been my experience the a great many religions actually have very little to do with what God wants of us.
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
Hunter S. Thompson