Author Topic: On Miracles  (Read 5963 times)

Offline trdsf

On Miracles
« on: January 09, 2018, 11:38:24 AM »
I was listening to Talk Heathens on YouTube and the conversation turned to the selective nature of 'miracles' attributed to Jesus in the  Bible, and the comment was made that if he'd just healed everybody in the world, boom, no debate anymore.

And it got me to thinking -- let's say for the sake of argument that today at noon, boom, every blind person on the planet was healed, just like that, no warning,

How long before the religious wars start because everyone thinks it was their god that performed the miracle?  Weeks?  Days?  Hours?
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Offline Baruch

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 12:24:59 PM »
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I was listening to Talk Heathens on YouTube and the conversation turned to the selective nature of 'miracles' attributed to Jesus in the  Bible, and the comment was made that if he'd just healed everybody in the world, boom, no debate anymore.

And it got me to thinking -- let's say for the sake of argument that today at noon, boom, every blind person on the planet was healed, just like that, no warning,

How long before the religious wars start because everyone thinks it was their god that performed the miracle?  Weeks?  Days?  Hours?

Wrong protagonists.  The doctors who argue who gets to charge us for the healing ;-)

Yes, clearly Jesus is mythical, because of obvious plot failures in the narrative.
שלום

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 12:45:54 PM »
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I was listening to Talk Heathens on YouTube and the conversation turned to the selective nature of 'miracles' attributed to Jesus in the  Bible, and the comment was made that if he'd just healed everybody in the world, boom, no debate anymore.

And it got me to thinking -- let's say for the sake of argument that today at noon, boom, every blind person on the planet was healed, just like that, no warning,

How long before the religious wars start because everyone thinks it was their god that performed the miracle?  Weeks?  Days?  Hours?
This thought has crossed my mind from time to time.  Why did god only issue his 'word' in one language and in one spot?  Has a bible turned up in say, the Americas dating to that time period?  Or Asia or Europe--or anywhere else?  And why was Jesus, the son of god, not paraded around any other part of the world?  God did not have enough semen in impregnate more than one woman?  Why not Jesus' all over the world teaching the same lessons and healing the sick in that part of the world?  And why couldn't god have written and distributed the same bible in all the languages of the world at that time and in material that would not rot away?  And if this god were perfect and all knowing, why would a bible be needed in the first place? 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 01:10:37 PM »
Miracles or not, people's locus of control can be telling. When good things happen, who is responsible? You? Your family? Society? God? How about when things go horribly wrong? I've noticed with some religious people when good things happen it is by the grace of God but when bad things happen it is evil within society or oneself.
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

― Pema Chödrön

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 11:28:22 PM »
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This thought has crossed my mind from time to time.  Why did god only issue his 'word' in one language and in one spot?  Has a bible turned up in say, the Americas dating to that time period?  Or Asia or Europe--or anywhere else?  And why was Jesus, the son of god, not paraded around any other part of the world?  God did not have enough semen in impregnate more than one woman?  Why not Jesus' all over the world teaching the same lessons and healing the sick in that part of the world?  And why couldn't god have written and distributed the same bible in all the languages of the world at that time and in material that would not rot away?  And if this god were perfect and all knowing, why would a bible be needed in the first place?

If I'm not mistaken, the Mormons believe that the Aztecs were visited by Jesus before white men showed up. The claim is completely baseless in fact, of course, but that doesn't stop people from rewriting history to their benefit.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Offline Baruch

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 11:38:36 PM »
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If I'm not mistaken, the Mormons believe that the Aztecs were visited by Jesus before white men showed up. The claim is completely baseless in fact, of course, but that doesn't stop people from rewriting history to their benefit.

There was a lot of weird historiography in the 19th century, like Lemuria ...

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This was before continental drift was understood.  Atlantis is the oldest fictional geography in the West.  Hinduism has a whole mythological geography.

It may be that some Europeans accidentally came to N America before even Leif Ericsson ... and Japanese may have accidentally came to S America.

Mormonism is its own crazy ... think of Fremin on Arakis.
שלום

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 01:21:14 AM »
If miracles aren't real, then how do you explain how magnets work?
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Offline Baruch

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 03:28:52 AM »
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If miracles aren't real, then how do you explain how magnets work?

Thales ... as viewed by Aristotle ...

"The relevant text from Aristotle reads: 'Thales, too, to judge from what is recorded of his views, seems to suppose that the soul is in a sense the cause of movement, since he says that a stone [magnet, or lodestone] has a soul because it causes movement to iron' (De An. 405 a20-22); 'Some think that the soul pervades the whole universe, whence perhaps came Thales's view that everything is full of gods' (De An. 411 a7-8)."

Atheists (in the Greek sense) are irreligious and materialist.  Most contemporary Greeks dismissed them, oppressed them or even executed them.  Don't diss Homer if you know what is good for you.
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Offline Sal1981

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 03:41:59 AM »
If, somehow, every blind person in the world suddenly could see, my first thought would be aliens.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Offline Cavebear

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2018, 04:12:11 AM »
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If, somehow, every blind person in the world suddenly could see, my first thought would be aliens.

I would always suspect technology for a cause over a deity.  The former is much more likely.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline trdsf

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2018, 09:04:53 AM »
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If, somehow, every blind person in the world suddenly could see, my first thought would be aliens.
As would I, but if they just did it and never actually made contact to take credit for it, the vast majority of this planet would take it as a miracle from their particular version of god with absolutely no reason that they should attribute it that way, other than that's how they pre-define miraculous-looking things.
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Offline Cavebear

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2018, 09:27:44 AM »
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As would I, but if they just did it and never actually made contact to take credit for it, the vast majority of this planet would take it as a miracle from their particular version of god with absolutely no reason that they should attribute it that way, other than that's how they pre-define miraculous-looking things.

Miracles don't exist.  But advanced technology might.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Online aitm

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2018, 09:31:16 AM »
I can't even get to miracles myself. I still can't get past, "Ima make me a vast universe and stuff it full of all kinds of creatures that in order to live must eat each other."

Da fuck man?
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Cavebear

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2018, 11:05:40 AM »
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I can't even get to miracles myself. I still can't get past, "Ima make me a vast universe and stuff it full of all kinds of creatures that in order to live must eat each other."

Da fuck man?

By all means yes, choose a place on the food chain you won't eat under.  That is the bottom of the food chain to you.  An amoeba looks at the world differently.  So do krill.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline SGOS

Re: On Miracles
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2018, 11:27:38 AM »
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If miracles aren't real, then how do you explain how magnets work?
I remember back when I was very little and given some tiny plastic dogs that had magnets glued to their feet.  Scottish Terriers, I believe they were.  One was black and one was white, but I digress.  If you snuck one of the dogs up behind the other, one would spin around and face the other dog and attach itself quite strongly.  I knew it was the magnets that made it happen, but I remember puzzling for what seemed like years over why a special metal would be attracted to itself so that one end of the magnet attracted while the other end would repel.  Magnets aren't alive, but why would an inert lifeless metal have a force like that?  I didn't associate it with a miracle, but I really wondered why it could be.  I can now explain partially what causes magnetism, but yet I still can't explain the cause of the cause.  It must be...

 

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